The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership - CNET

[jamil]

Really? You've never seen a video of a car catching fire at a gas station? You want me to google that for you?

I mean. I'm not trying to advocate for EV's. I just want us to be honest about it and admit the reality that is. I've personally seen more than one car fire and that was before EV's came along. So let's stick with what's true. There are plenty of problems with EV's especially at scale. The grid isn't ready to support replacing ICE with EV yet. They're expensive. The their effective life is limited by the battery life, which is usually shorter than an ICE vehicle. Not everyone can just go out there and buy a new EV. There are plenty of problems they need to solve. These problems should be solved by the market, naturally. Not forced. But they do have their legitimate place. They're not literally Satan.

I don't hate EV's. I'm looking for a new vehicle now to replace my wife's SUV. Zero EV's or plug-in hybrids are in the running. It's gonna be internal combustion. Probably a Jeep. And probably diesel. But everything is so damned expensive now.

 

[KittySlayer]

MSN

www.msn.com

Only true dumbmasses could not see this coming…

So now they will have people standing in line with extension cords?

Maybe they will have them only able to charge on odd days and even days?

Bet there is a way to remotely restrict those electronic cars from being able to charge when the government mandates it.

Democratic Leadership for the Win Loss.

 

[JCSR]

Really? You've never seen a video of a car catching fire at a gas station? You want me to google that for you?

I mean. I'm not trying to advocate for EV's. I just want us to be honest about it and admit the reality that is. I've personally seen more than one car fire and that was before EV's came along. So let's stick with what's true. There are plenty of problems with EV's especially at scale. The grid isn't ready to support replacing ICE with EV yet. They're expensive. The their effective life is limited by the battery life, which is usually shorter than an ICE vehicle. Not everyone can just go out there and buy a new EV. There are plenty of problems they need to solve. These problems should be solved by the market, naturally. Not forced. But they do have their legitimate place. They're not literally Satan.

I don't hate EV's. I'm looking for a new vehicle now to replace my wife's SUV. Zero EV's or plug-in hybrids are in the running. It's gonna be internal combustion. Probably a Jeep. And probably diesel. But everything is so damned expensive now.

Gas filling station have automatic shut offs on all pumps. They seem to work pretty well from my experience, keeping fire isolated to one car usually.

Are you ok charging one overnight in your garage while you and your family sleeps?

And there's this.
And even when the battery fire is obvious, Tesla warns first responders that it can take 24 hours for a battery fire to be fully extinguished.

 

[jamil]

Gas filling station have automatic shut offs on all pumps. They seem to work pretty well from my experience, keeping fire isolated to one car usually.

Are you ok charging one overnight in your garage while you and your family sleeps?

And there's this.
And even when the battery fire is obvious, Tesla warns first responders that it can take 24 hours for a battery fire to be fully extinguished.

That’s a problem. Relatively rare. But it’s a problem. But as for your question, I’m not in the market for an EV. But, would I charge one overnight? If I had one, yes. But I don’t. And I’m not looking to get one.

 

[indyblue]

At least gasoline fires can easily be extinguished using conventional fire fighting techniques and equipment.

Once those batteries get going they cannot be extinguished and the reaction is always extremely violent.

 

[jamil]

At least gasoline fires can easily be extinguished using conventional fire fighting techniques and equipment.

Once those batteries get going they cannot be extinguished and the reaction is always extremely violent.

That’s true too. It’s a problem. The market can solve it. But the people who want everyone driving EV’s now, don’t like markets.

 

[JCSR]

I bet you didn't know this.......

The solution........

When Driving, Tires Emit Pollution. And EVs Make the Problem Worse​

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[actaeon277]

 

[Ingomike]

Tesla’s battery warranty, for example, is 8 years or 150K miles.

Many are confusing reality with marketing hype. That warranty is marketing hype to get consumers comfortable with the their concerns of battery life. (And by putting it into the warranty the consumer is prepaying for replacement batteries with Tesla.) Remember when Iacocca put unheard of warranties on Chrysler/Dodge products because nobody trusted their vehicles?

 

[KLB]

Many are confusing reality with marketing hype. That warranty is marketing hype to get consumers comfortable with the their concerns of battery life. (And by putting it into the warranty the consumer is prepaying for replacement batteries with Tesla.) Remember when Iacocca put unheard of warranties on Chrysler/Dodge products because nobody trusted their vehicles?

VW did the same thing after Diesel Gate. 6 years/72K miles. They've dropped it back to 4yrs/50K now.

 

[actaeon277]

Also, how is the battery judged?

Only half the range, but they tell you, "it's not broken"?

 

[jamil]

Many are confusing reality with marketing hype. That warranty is marketing hype to get consumers comfortable with the their concerns of battery life. (And by putting it into the warranty the consumer is prepaying for replacement batteries with Tesla.) Remember when Iacocca put unheard of warranties on Chrysler/Dodge products because nobody trusted their vehicles?

Are you saying that you don't get 150K miles or 8 years life out of a Tesla battery?

Yeah. I'll bet it's a communist plot.

 

[Ingomike]

Are you saying that you don't get 150K miles or 8 years life out of a Tesla battery?

Yeah. I'll bet it's a communist plot.

Yes, my country boy senses doubt very much that the EV batteries will last 8 years and 150,000 miles for the normal folks. Right now EV’s are largely the province of wealthy multi car families that I have seen, not folks only car.

Much of the material written about EV’s is propaganda. But alas,it is not a communist plot, far worse than that..

 

[jamil]

VW did the same thing after Diesel Gate. 6 years/72K miles. They've dropped it back to 4yrs/50K now.

It's hard to say at this point how long EV batteries will last. The industry is optimistic, and it's possible they're overly optimistic. The Tesla warranty is 150K miles or 8 years, for a degredation of no more than 70%. And that's definitely something that people should consider when they buy an EV. Maybe you actually get your advertised 350 or whatever miles of range up front. But think about a few years into it when you'll only be getting 250-ish. Is that going to be a problem for your use? If not, go for it. If so, maybe wait until battery tech gets better.

 

[jamil]

Yes, my country boy senses doubt very much that the EV batteries will last 8 years and 150,000 miles for the normal folks. Right now EV’s are largely the province of wealthy multi car families that I have seen, not folks only car.

Much of the material written about EV’s is propaganda. But alas,it is not a communist plot, far worse than that..

Okay, so basically because you don't like EV's they can't possibly meet that. I get the sense that I could have said any numbers for the warranty and you'd have been skeptical. And I don't mind when people are skeptical. I kinda think the skepticism jeeds to be based on something more than .

But you did hit on the real niche for EV's. The upper middle class and above who have other cars and use them for commuting, or for signaling. Like the guy I work with. His wife is a pharmacist. He's a director in the company. They're doing quite well financially. Live off of Valhalla golf course. She has a Honda. He has a Tesla. His use for the Tesla is a daily commuter, and short road trips. He doesn't have the 3 phase fast charger. So he just plugs it in when he gets home. And it's topped off by morning. I think he's had it since spring 2019. So 3.5 years. He's still happy with it.

If we're going to talk about propaganda, EVERY advertisement is propaganda. They all embellish. They all make claims that have fine print. The fine print on the Tesla warranty is that it'll degrade 70% from the original capacity.

I don't have a problem with EV's in themselves. Eventually ICE will be obsolete whether you're ready for it or not. I'd rather that be a natural market process, just like when horses, saddles and wagons, gave way to automobiles. I hope ICE doesn't disappear. I think there'll still be a market for enthusiasts. By that time, I'll be long gone though.

My problem with EV's is only that they're being pushed onto people for nutty ideological reasons. Let the market work it out organically. There is a place for EV's. Right now, they're not for everyone. They're not mature enough to replace every use case. And we don't have the infrastructure for everyone to have one. So those are the realistic problems with EV's. And I'd rather discuss the realistic problems than the ones people make up in their heads.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It's hard to say at this point how long EV batteries will last. The industry is optimistic, and it's possible they're overly optimistic. The Tesla warranty is 150K miles or 8 years, for a degredation of no more than 70%. And that's definitely something that people should consider when they buy an EV. Maybe you actually get your advertised 350 or whatever miles of range up front. But think about a few years into it when you'll only be getting 250-ish. Is that going to be a problem for your use? If not, go for it. If so, maybe wait until battery tech gets better.

Another aspect you have to consider for those mileage estimates is is that mileage on a 100% charge? Unless the technology has improved, the charge times listed typically talk about (something like) charging from 10% to 80%. The last 20% takes MUCH longer than the time to get to 80%. Also, is that mileage based on 100% to battery depletion? I’m not sure. Earlier in this thread, an INGOer mentioned that he actually got more range than that listed. It’s a different way of thinking than we’re all used to with an ICE and a gas tank.

 

[jamil]

Another aspect you have to consider for those mileage estimates is is that mileage on a 100% charge? Unless the technology has improved, the charge times listed typically talk about (something like) charging from 10% to 80%. The last 20% takes MUCH longer than the time to get to 80%. Also, is that mileage based on 100% to battery depletion? I’m not sure. Earlier in this thread, an INGOer mentioned that he actually got more range than that listed. It’s a different way of thinking than we’re all used to with an ICE and a gas tank.

Also, what charging habits will make your batteries last longer? Lithium-ion batteries don't like being at more than 85%, and they don't like being less than 15%. Sustained periods in either state decreases life. Okay, so if you charge it only to 85% are you okay with losing 50 miles of range? It's a trade off. I think for my friend who owns one, it's probably okay. He just uses it as a daily driver. If you're, say, a salesman or whatever and you typically put a couple hundred miles a day in, maybe that's not gonna work.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Also, what charging habits will make your batteries last longer? Lithium-ion batteries don't like being at more than 85%, and they don't like being less than 15%. Sustained periods in either state decreases life. Okay, so if you charge it only to 85% are you okay with losing 50 miles of range? It's a trade off. I think for my friend who owns one, it's probably okay. He just uses it as a daily driver. If you're, say, a salesman or whatever and you typically put a couple hundred miles a day in, maybe that's not gonna work.

The messaging now is that EVs are the new hotness, everyone’s doing them, and you need to too. It is going to be interesting in the next couple of years when people that want to be in the cool club buy these things and find out their real world limitations.

 

[JCSR]

Also, what charging habits will make your batteries last longer? Lithium-ion batteries don't like being at more than 85%, and they don't like being less than 15%. Sustained periods in either state decreases life. Okay, so if you charge it only to 85% are you okay with losing 50 miles of range? It's a trade off. I think for my friend who owns one, it's probably okay. He just uses it as a daily driver. If you're, say, a salesman or whatever and you typically put a couple hundred miles a day in, maybe that's not gonna work.

My experience with Lithium-ion batteries in motorcycles shows they don't like temps much less than 50*F. They still function but at a noticeable loss of power.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Also, what charging habits will make your batteries last longer? Lithium-ion batteries don't like being at more than 85%, and they don't like being less than 15%. Sustained periods in either state decreases life. Okay, so if you charge it only to 85% are you okay with losing 50 miles of range? It's a trade off. I think for my friend who owns one, it's probably okay. He just uses it as a daily driver. If you're, say, a salesman or whatever and you typically put a couple hundred miles a day in, maybe that's not gonna work.

It will be more than 50 miles unless you have the smallest battery version available.

30% on a 300 mile range is 90 miles, if it 450 mile range you lose 135 miles. More in cold weather. That's a pretty significant hit.

It's all word games to try to sell.