Tactical Response at it again. Dangerous and Unprofessional ?

[Woobie]

By the way, I'm not going to go back and find it, but the gif posted upthread of the guy with the AK is Sonny Puzikas. He is a friend of Yeager's, and holds the distinction of actually having shot one of his students.

Edit: another instructor, not a student, was shot. My mistake.

 

[JettaKnight]

Bob, I'm not trying to "win" this conversation. I'm trying to decide if I should change how I practice.

Right now I drop my main gun if I have to quickly transition to my bug. I also think it is reasonable to have people drop their loaded handgun intentionally to help them get over the urge to try to catch their handgun if they fumble their draw.

I guess that point hits kind of close to home with me as one time I lost my grip on a handgun and "juggled it" trying to catch it. Trying to catch the gun was not safe at all and it made an impression on me that I needed to break myself of trying. I posted the videos to see if people's objection was to dropping the gun at all, dropping the loaded gun, or just Yeager. I also posted the Southnarc .pdf because he does not teach to drop the gun while drawing the bug and he seems to make sense in what he does.

Why does practice to transitioning have to involve a drop? Why not just hold out your hands and practice going for your BUG? You'll get the same benefit.

If your beard dictates that this type of training is required, do it at home when dry firing.

And no, it's not reasonable to intentionally drop a loaded gun to "help them get over an urge". It's stupid. That's like intentionally wrecking your car to get over the urge to hold back your passenger with your right arm before the collision.

 

[Gluemanz28]

When I was a lot younger I tried snow skiing. My first trip down the hill I fell and busted my butt at least a half dozen times before I reached the bottom of the bunny hill. I didn't need any practice learning to fall, it was just a natural instinct.

I won't need to purposely drop my EDC to know how to drop it.

 

[in625shooter]

Bob, I'm not trying to "win" this conversation. I'm trying to decide if I should change how I practice.

Right now I drop my main gun if I have to quickly transition to my bug. I also think it is reasonable to have people drop their loaded handgun intentionally to help them get over the urge to try to catch their handgun if they fumble their draw.

I guess that point hits kind of close to home with me as one time I lost my grip on a handgun and "juggled it" trying to catch it. Trying to catch the gun was not safe at all and it made an impression on me that I needed to break myself of trying. I posted the videos to see if people's objection was to dropping the gun at all, dropping the loaded gun, or just Yeager. I also posted the Southnarc .pdf because he does not teach to drop the gun while drawing the bug and he seems to make sense in what he does.

I am just respectfully talking here. While yes trying to catch a loaded gun could be bad idea etc, My outlook is this. As humans trying to teach someone to undo the urge to try and catch something or even stop themselves from bending over on is a very, very challenging task. A lot can't fight the urge no matter how many safety briefs on the firing line, a large majority still will at least start to bend over and retrieve a magazine they drop is challenging at best. Yes some can gauge it but most will not and revert to their "nature". I run firing lines with upwards of 25 people on it at a time and have seen about everything.

Again just talking but being an Agency instructor of some sort for 24 out of my 30 years in that is a a hard thing to overcome. People will still do what they do and react. Some can switch gears and some can not.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

When I was a lot younger I tried snow skiing. My first trip down the hill I fell and busted my butt at least a half dozen times before I reached the bottom of the bunny hill. I didn't need any practice learning to fall, it was just a natural instinct.

I won't need to purposely drop my EDC to know how to drop it.

You are fortunate that it came naturally to you. I was not very good at falling and I have spent hours being instructed how to fall and practicing it.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Am I the only one that throws an emptied gun at the target?

I almost did this at my last class with BBI & Coach in a Leroy Jenkins stunt, but thought better of it. Even though I knew it would be emptied... still sort uncool.
On my home range? You betcha... although, if I'm throwing my gun at the target, **** just got real.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I also think it is reasonable to have people drop their loaded handgun intentionally to help them get over the urge to try to catch their handgun if they fumble their draw.

It is not. This is 100% a mind set issue. I've dropped my gun by accident and didn't juggle it because I know to not to. Knowing you're going to drop it to condition yourself to not attempt to catch it when you surprise yourself with dropping it? No. Just tell yourself, if I drop it, I won't try to catch it. Having the plan is more important than some odd attempt to burn reps of dropping a gun into your psyche.

Case in point, I've been warned about squib rounds and what to do in case of one for roughly 20 years. I'd never had a squib round until this week. As soon as I heard the different sound signature and felt the reduced recoil I said out loud "Squib" and lowered the gun. I was the *only* person on the range. There was no reason at all to announce squib as there was no one else to cease fire. I never intentionally loaded squib loads so that I'd do the right thing when it happened. I was trained to have a plan and to implement that plan upon the conditions being met, and I did it instinctively when the conditions were met with no conscious thought on my part at all.

 

[MohawkSlim]

I was trained to have a plan and to implement that plan upon the conditions being met, and I did it instinctively when the conditions were met with no conscious thought on my part at all.

TR is training people to do that.

You may not agree with their methods but here's what many of you on this thread aren't considering - TR doesn't train, "how to avoid shooting yourself when removing your pistol from your holster when you poop." They're training how to fight with a firearm. That's a completely different set of goals and they've adjusted their curriculum accordingly.

A quick google search of your boy Tom Givens shows the first line, "After completing a 25-year career in law enforcement" (which we know differs from James Yeager's career) which means he's developed the mindset over the years of being accountable for his shots and his image in relation to firearms use. If he pulls his pistol he better be right. Yeager and 'nem aren't too concerned with that because they're fighting zombies.

The mindset development you speak of is (for lack of a better term) a completely different school of thought. When LEOs can sit in a classroom for numerous hours a year and talk about the psychology of shooting and the physiology involved, the cultural stigmas, the related actions required they tend to drift toward "good citizen shoots bad guy in self defense scenario." Since all the actual shooting training of that is done on a golf course or in a shoot house - a controlled environment - it's done with rigid safety standards in place because the mindset has already been developed. You don't play with guns... you only use them as a last resort and only when the bad guy leaves you no option.

Yeager and 'nem are playing zombie hunter in a post-apocalyptic fantasy land where law and order has broken down. (Might be Baghdad, might be 20 seconds at an ATM) They're taken someone who's most likely had ZERO training on high-risk scenario management and in the course of a day or two, training them to be ninja warriors.

I agree it can be safely done without a cameraman downrange. But that takes a lot more time and involvement on the student's part and typically, students don't have the financial backer to make that happen. They get one fly-away training opportunity every couple of years. The taxpayers don't pay for them to sit in class for hours on end.

 

[Dead Duck]

And there you go......

 

[The Bubba Effect]

TR is training people to do that.

You may not agree with their methods but here's what many of you on this thread aren't considering - TR doesn't train, "how to avoid shooting yourself when removing your pistol from your holster when you poop." They're training how to fight with a firearm. That's a completely different set of goals and they've adjusted their curriculum accordingly.

A quick google search of your boy Tom Givens shows the first line, "After completing a 25-year career in law enforcement" (which we know differs from James Yeager's career) which means he's developed the mindset over the years of being accountable for his shots and his image in relation to firearms use. If he pulls his pistol he better be right. Yeager and 'nem aren't too concerned with that because they're fighting zombies.

The mindset development you speak of is (for lack of a better term) a completely different school of thought. When LEOs can sit in a classroom for numerous hours a year and talk about the psychology of shooting and the physiology involved, the cultural stigmas, the related actions required they tend to drift toward "good citizen shoots bad guy in self defense scenario." Since all the actual shooting training of that is done on a golf course or in a shoot house - a controlled environment - it's done with rigid safety standards in place because the mindset has already been developed. You don't play with guns... you only use them as a last resort and only when the bad guy leaves you no option.

Yeager and 'nem are playing zombie hunter in a post-apocalyptic fantasy land where law and order has broken down. (Might be Baghdad, might be 20 seconds at an ATM) They're taken someone who's most likely had ZERO training on high-risk scenario management and in the course of a day or two, training them to be ninja warriors.

I agree it can be safely done without a cameraman downrange. But that takes a lot more time and involvement on the student's part and typically, students don't have the financial backer to make that happen. They get one fly-away training opportunity every couple of years. The taxpayers don't pay for them to sit in class for hours on end.

That's not at all what we covered during fighting pistol or advanced fighting pistol. Where are you getting this nonsense info on how Tactical Response is training, what they are training for or how they do it? We spent a lot of time discussing who is proper and improper to shoot, responsibility for each shot fired, when to draw, etc.

Slim, have you been in the bottle?

 

[Dirtebiker]

Dude, you can make me laugh even sitting in the hospital!

 

[Dirtebiker]

Why did he do this outside a shooting bay also?

To Yeager's credit, his response video did have a couple of good points.

Like what?

 

[Dead Duck]

Dude, you can make me laugh even sitting in the hospital!

I bet you'll never look at a snowcone the same again.

 

[Dirtebiker]

By the way, I'm not going to go back and find it, but the gif posted upthread of the guy with the AK is Sonny Puzikas. He is a friend of Yeager's, and holds the distinction of actually having shot one of his students.

Edit: another instructor, not a student, was shot. My mistake.

oh, well that's cool then!

 

[17 squirrel]

And there you go......

"So let it be written. So let it be done."

 

[17 squirrel]

I bet you'll never look at a snowcone the same again.

I for one, will forever eat snowcones with a spoon.. Or a dirty spork from under the truck seat..

 

[Dirtebiker]

I bet you'll never look at a snowcone the same again.

Hopefully I can unremember it at some point!

 

[Gluemanz28]

You are fortunate that it came naturally to you. I was not very good at falling and I have spent hours being instructed how to fall and practicing it.

The falling part was easy. It was the looking back up the hill to see if I was about to have a set of skis from another skier Jabbed into me.

I realized what the ski poles were for when I had fallen several times and was only half way down the hill. I looked back and I see some kid leaning forward on his skis moving at warp speed towards me. Just as I think I'm about to get speared, he does a hard cut like he is in the winter Olympic Games on a slalom course. All I see is snow covering me like the snow plow that throws the snow back in my freshly shoveled driveway. Then I hear the little brat laughing all the way down the rest of the hill.

What does all of this have to do with the ski poles? They are for spearing those little brats!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

TR is training people to do that.

You may not agree with their methods but here's what many of you on this thread aren't considering - TR doesn't train, "how to avoid shooting yourself when removing your pistol from your holster when you poop." They're training how to fight with a firearm. That's a completely different set of goals and they've adjusted their curriculum accordingly.

A quick google search of your boy Tom Givens shows the first line, "After completing a 25-year career in law enforcement" (which we know differs from James Yeager's career) which means he's developed the mindset over the years of being accountable for his shots and his image in relation to firearms use. If he pulls his pistol he better be right. Yeager and 'nem aren't too concerned with that because they're fighting zombies.

The mindset development you speak of is (for lack of a better term) a completely different school of thought. When LEOs can sit in a classroom for numerous hours a year and talk about the psychology of shooting and the physiology involved, the cultural stigmas, the related actions required they tend to drift toward "good citizen shoots bad guy in self defense scenario." Since all the actual shooting training of that is done on a golf course or in a shoot house - a controlled environment - it's done with rigid safety standards in place because the mindset has already been developed. You don't play with guns... you only use them as a last resort and only when the bad guy leaves you no option.

Yeager and 'nem are playing zombie hunter in a post-apocalyptic fantasy land where law and order has broken down. (Might be Baghdad, might be 20 seconds at an ATM) They're taken someone who's most likely had ZERO training on high-risk scenario management and in the course of a day or two, training them to be ninja warriors.

I agree it can be safely done without a cameraman downrange. But that takes a lot more time and involvement on the student's part and typically, students don't have the financial backer to make that happen. They get one fly-away training opportunity every couple of years. The taxpayers don't pay for them to sit in class for hours on end.

So Yeager is teaching fantasy gunfighting and Givens is teaching real life gunfighting, but we need cameramen down range because it's faster and easier because we don't have hours to sit in classrooms because Givens was a cop so his civilian students were sitting in classrooms for hours with financial backers because reasons. Real life results and real life experience are meaningless because ninja warrior.

Gosh, why didn't you just say so.

 

[Gluemanz28]

TR is training people to do that.

You may not agree with their methods but here's what many of you on this thread aren't considering - TR doesn't train, "how to avoid shooting yourself when removing your pistol from your holster when you poop." They're training how to fight with a firearm. That's a completely different set of goals and they've adjusted their curriculum accordingly.

You are correct that I don't agree with their methods. Some training methods are like walking through the park and you step in a pile of dog crap. It's a stinky mess that someone else has to deal with because of a careless dog owner.

The owner of the dog might have even seen it happen and not say anything about. Then somebody else in the park sees you trying to clean up your Nike Air Jordan's and points out the jack wagon that left the pile behind.

You confront him about it and he try's to get sympathy by asking for a donation to the local animal rescue. Then he says he is going to give the dog saw dust to eat for the next week so he will poop wooden turds. He goes on to say the pile left behind is organic fertilizer and shouldn't hurt anything being left in the park.

When I point to one the signs posted all around the park that all pet owners are responsible to clean up after their pets he flips me off as he and his dog trample right through the flower garden destroying the beautiful flowers for all to enjoy.