Tactical Reload vs. Reload w/Retention

[esrice]

This topic has been discussed before, and I thought this video gave a very clear and concise opinion on how they are different, and when one is better than the other.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAuIxQNNvxA[/ame]

 

[sgreen3]

Very informative, thanks for posting.

 

[cedartop]

Ugh, off to work, I will have to get back to this later. I totally don't agree with that 12 year olds conclusions.

 

[David Rose]

I'm not seeing a lot to argue with. 2 techniques that accomplish the same thing. They both have strengths and weaknesses. Pick one, accept its short comings, and move on.

 

[jeremy]

Tagging to watch later

 

[VERT]

Tagged for cedartop response.

 

[Double T]

Umm. I don't think he can count. either way you go to the belt twice, so the timing differences should be negligible. One way, you have two mags in your hand and always have a mag in the gun, the other way you are only having a chambered round and no mag momentarily.

I like the video showing them both, but in reality who leaves an empty mag holder on their belt for edc?

Waiting for more peeps comments as well.

 

[rvb]

I'm not seeing a lot to argue with. 2 techniques that accomplish the same thing. They both have strengths and weaknesses. Pick one, accept its short comings, and move on.

I don't even think you have to pick just one. Just understand the strengths and weaknesses and put the tools in the toolbox...

-rvb

 

[rvb]

Umm. I don't think he can count. either way you go to the belt twice, so the timing differences should be negligible. One way, you have two mags in your hand and always have a mag in the gun, the other way you are only having a chambered round and no mag momentarily.

I like the video showing them both, but in reality who leaves an empty mag holder on their belt for edc?

Waiting for more peeps comments as well.

HE can count just fine it seems...

You don't have to use an empty pouch. Pocket, inside your belt, whatever.

-rvb

 

[Double T]

HE can count just fine it seems...

You don't have to use an empty pouch. Pocket, inside your belt, whatever.

-rvb

Either reload technique has you lingering at one spot. One is at the gun, the other is at the belt line.

I actually got to watch this on the pc, and my counting is off. no sleep

 

[rvb]

Either reload technique has you lingering at one spot. One is at the gun, the other is at the belt line.

I actually got to watch this on the pc, and my counting is off. no sleep

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/2930390-post272.html.

If the "lingering" is the same, then the two trips to the belt certainly adds time. Once to the belt method is faster shot to shot. Twice to the belt method has the gun empty the shortest amount of time.

I've tested both, with a shot timer, hundreds of times.

-rvb

 

[iChokePeople]

Interesting topic, tagging for reading/learning.

For me, the speed thing isn't my top consideration. I'm only going to try one of these when I *think* I have time to spare and a second doesn't matter. So for me, the question becomes, "what if you're wrong?" If I was right, either is fine. But what if I think I have the time for a proactive reload, but something happens mid-change? In this case, I *think* I'd rather be doing what the cat in the video calls the tactical reload. At that point, there will be no second trip to the belt -- I'll either just punch out the mag on the ground and reload (if I haven't swapped yet), or I'll drop the post-swap empty mag on the ground and continue (if I'd already done the swap.) I get that this might not be best for pure speed in a competition, but I think it offers the lowest risk of a bad day in the defensive world if I was wrong about having a good opportunity for a proactive reload.

Definitely agree that they both have their pros and cons and that the "reload with retention" would tend to be less fumble prone and faster for getting back to having a fully loaded gun with a two-hand grip.

Interesting discussion.

Feel free to point out any logical/tactical errors.

 

[Sureshot129]

The "reload with retention" is faster for follow up shots as upon insertion of the of the new mag your support hand is right back in the firing grip. With this method you have a single shot pistol if something happens during the reload and your attention is focused back on the suspect. I also want to see Cedartop's input on this subject.

 

[NIFT]

Clint Smith on the "tactical" (whatever that is) reload.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUgANV_yL4[/ame]

I agree with Clint: the "tactical" reload has extremely limited viable application, except, perhaps, for competitive shooting that seems to be enamored with the "tacti-cool" reload and requires such in many stages.

The application that I like for the "tactical" reload is as stripper magazine for loading from empty at the "Load and make ready" command before the start of a stage. Insert the stripper mag., chamber a round, remove the stripper mag. and replace with a full mag via the "tactical" reload.

 

[indyjoe]

NIFT, great post. Saved me writing a bunch of thoughts. This is one thing that took me away from using gun games as training. I think they teach bad habits for competition.

That being said, I will never do this in a way that doesn't bring ammo up to my working gun before making it a non-working gun. Reduction of downtime of the weapon system is the only important thing.

 

[cedartop]

Okay, sorry for the delay, sometimes work sucks. Right of the bat I have to ask, Is that kid even old enough to own a handgun?

Starting out I thought okay, I am going to like this, he is using the terms, proactive, and reactive like we do. He sorta lost me when he did the one step to the side thing, but this isn't what that is about. I have no problem with the techniques he used, just the conclusions he came to. Here is the crux of the matter as I see it. The classic "tactical" reload was developed to be used with slim 1911 mags, things may be a little different with double stacks. Add to that a few other factors, such as stress, moving while doing the reload, and maybe something like having a flashlight in your support hand, and your prospects for messing up with the "tactical" reload go up dramatically.

Remember, the whole rationale for a proactive reload is that there is a lull in the fight or you have cover, or preferrably both. The difference in time to get your pistol back up and running is so small as to be insignificant, especially considering that this is a PROACTIVE reload. Some of us forget that most people don't practice enough to get the easy stuff right under stress, let alone the fine motor control stuff like juggling two mags in your hand when you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky.

If you don't believe me lets see what the late Mr. Gomez has to say about it.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8&feature=BFa&list=UUnlR_KehwA1YfqrR9Mf9Rig[/ame]

ps I only use Paul because we agree on this subject, and his video was handy.
.

 

[indyjoe]

I would have to try tucking a mag in my pants as I'm "hauling butt" to see if this is any easier or harder than to mags in the hand. I have big hands and have no control problems with a normal tactical reload.

Wonder if this is preferred more or less by those of us who have non-flat stomachs.

 

[Matt52]

Dont take your gun apart in a gunfight- Clint Smith

 

[NIFT]

Okay, sorry for the delay, sometimes work sucks. Right of the bat I have to ask, Is that kid even old enough to own a handgun?

Starting out I thought okay, I am going to like this, he is using the terms, proactive, and reactive like we do. He sorta lost me when he did the one step to the side thing, but this isn't what that is about. I have no problem with the techniques he used, just the conclusions he came to. Here is the crux of the matter as I see it. The classic "tactical" reload was developed to be used with slim 1911 mags, things may be a little different with double stacks. Add to that a few other factors, such as stress, moving while doing the reload, and maybe something like having a flashlight in your support hand, and your prospects for messing up with the "tactical" reload go up dramatically.

Remember, the whole rationale for a proactive reload is that there is a lull in the fight or you have cover, or preferrably both. The difference in time to get your pistol back up and running is so small as to be insignificant, especially considering that this is a PROACTIVE reload. Some of us forget that most people don't practice enough to get the easy stuff right under stress, let alone the fine motor control stuff like juggling two mags in your hand when you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky.

If you don't believe me lets see what the late Mr. Gomez has to say about it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8&feature=BFa&list=UUnlR_KehwA1YfqrR9Mf9Rig

ps I only use Paul because we agree on this subject, and his video was handy.
.

I, too, am very fond of the late Mr. Gomez's teaching and thinking; however, I am hard pressed to see the true practical application of either the "tactical" or "proactive" reload in a deadly force encounter especially when,as Cedartop aptly described it, "you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky."


At 3:40 of the video, Mr. Gomez advocates the "proactive" reload while running full out during a gunfight. Perhaps, I am an outlier, but I lack the multi-dexterous requirements to do what follows, basically all at the same time:

1. run at full speed (forward, obliquely, sideways, backwards, etc.) over uneven, unfamilliar terrain, while,
2. holding a handgun up in my sight,
3. removing the magazine,
4. tucking it into my waistband under a shirt,
5. removing another magazine from its pouch, and
6. inserting it into the empty magwell.

All the while:

1. not stumbling or falling down,
2. not running into a tree, or rock, or pole, or car, or fire hydrant, or....., and
3. neither dropping nor fumbling either:
4. the first magazine,
5. the second magazine, or
6. the gun, and
7. still concentrating on the location and actions of the assailant(s).

Are there any independently verifiable examples of the above being done successfully by one person in a gunfight?

 

[VERT]

I, too, am very fond of the late Mr. Gomez's teaching and thinking; however, I am hard pressed to see the true practical application of either the "tactical" or "proactive" reload in a deadly force encounter especially when,as Cedartop aptly described it, "you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky."


At 3:40 of the video, Mr. Gomez advocates the "proactive" reload while running full out during a gunfight. Perhaps, I am an outlier, but I lack the multi-dexterous requirements to do what follows, basically all at the same time:

1. run at full speed (forward, obliquely, sideways, backwards, etc.) over uneven, unfamilliar terrain, while,
2. holding a handgun up in my sight,
3. removing the magazine,
4. tucking it into my waistband under a shirt,
5. removing another magazine from its pouch, and
6. inserting it into the empty magwell.

All the while:

1. not stumbling or falling down,
2. not running into a tree, or rock, or pole, or car, or fire hydrant, or....., and
3. neither dropping nor fumbling either:
4. the first magazine,
5. the second magazine, or
6. the gun, and
7. still concentrating on the location and actions of the assailant(s).

Are there any independently verifiable examples of the above being done successfully by one person in a gunfight?

I saw this as well and my first thought was that reloading with retention or "tactical reload" is best done when behind cover. I see this being employed by LEO or Military as they might be behind cover and working in teams. For the rest of us if we are moving it means we are trying to get out of the way or get to some type of cover. Either way probably not the time to reload a gun that still has live rounds.

I did enjoy that video and I agree with Mr. Gomez's logic.

As for the Clint Smith video. I have seen that before and it makes a lot of sense.