SWAT Team invades home and kills dog for a joint.

[MinuteMan47]

even a Special Forces team is worthless in that case. the damage will be done long before any police arrive.

...Just like the DC Sniper and the kid shooting passerbys from the 69 off ramps...

 

[Expat]

I hope your daughter isnt getting out of class when the guy in the bell tower starts shooting.

Remember armed civilians were part of the group that kept the bell tower sniper (Charles Whitman) pinned down and one even was in the group that went up and assisted in the bell tower.

 

[VUPDblue]

If an APC can keep one officer/citizen/whatever safe from one idiot on a shooting rampage then it's worth having IMHO.

 

[phylodog]

The rise to current levels of armament of SWAT teams in this country has been occurring for a long time, longer than all but the most dedicated and long term conspiracy theorists have warned of imminent marshal law (no reference to anyone in this thread). It has occurred due to the steady increase in the violence which is becoming ever more commonplace in our society.

This is what we are training for. If you believe these types of incidents aren't coming to our shores or won't happen again you are fooling yourselves. We have been lucky in Indiana and hopefully we will continue to be but if something like this happens, who do you think is going to respond? What type of equipment would you want if you were going in to this type of situation? I certainly don't jerk off thinking about this kind of thing happening but there will be no mistaking my response if it does. I'd prefer to have what I need to get in there and stop the murderous thugs before they can rack up a body count. Maybe I'm weird.

Beslan school hostage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2008 Mumbai attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[j706]

With all do respect, I do believe I can comment on this issue. The number of SWAT teams arming themselves to the teeth is absurd. Did you read the article I posted earlier today from Popular Mechanics? I have researched the issue quite a bit...and I am positive that I am not the only person who thinks this way. The probability of them needing all of this equipment is slim, and if anyone can provide statistical information I would be intrigued to read them (but my guess is those statistics don't exist) Some may say I'm wearing a tin-foil hat, but from what I have read the motivating factor may be martial law...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding_upon_missouri_and_nine_other_states.html


My sincerest condolences go out to those LEOs who have lost their lives while perfoming their duties.

As for the article you posted,Boone County Police Department has a 1960's type wheeled armored vehicle. Not sure but I really doubt that it is amphibious. Even if it was who cares? It was military surplus so you you get what is available. I am glad they have the thing. It is available and there if needed. They are a ten minute drive from where I work. And for what it is worth, anyone who kicks on the BCPD needs to have their head examined. You will not find a better trained,motivated,equipped and led PD than BCPD. I challenge anyone to show me any PD that has done more to support the rights of any thing 2nd amendment than that PD.

Armored vehicles have a place in LE. Full auto weapons have a place in LE. Military tactics have a place in LE. They are all here and they are going to remain here. And not to add to your obvious paranoia, but most motivated PD's are scooping up all the military veterans that they can hire.

 

[phylodog]

Ah, a Texas Bell Tower reference. It's interesting to note that that shooter was taken down by a beat cop, not a specialist. The police sniper in that event never could get a shot, because he was in an airplane instead of on a steady surface. That was the deadliest educational shooting till VA Tech...where the cops were no help at all. SWAT Teams and specialists played nor role in either event.

There were no SWAT teams or specialists. That incident is what spawned the idea to begin with.

I don't disagree with you that there are too many small agencies creating their own SWAT teams. Once they're there someone's going to want to use them. I would prefer to see regional teams in place. You end up with higher quality personnel on the teams, better equipment, better training as well as a balancing out of the mentalities of the membership.

 

[MinuteMan47]

If an APC can keep one officer/citizen/whatever safe from one idiot on a shooting rampage then it's worth having IMHO.

I agree. But, we are talking about much more than just one APC...how many do we need around here. IMPD, MCSD, BCSD...one for each??? If SHTF they could just as easily be used against us....Katrina anyone.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Ah, a Texas Bell Tower reference. It's interesting to note that that shooter was taken down by a beat cop, not a specialist. The police sniper in that event never could get a shot, because he was in an airplane instead of on a steady surface. That was the deadliest educational shooting till VA Tech...where the cops were no help at all. SWAT Teams and specialists played nor role in either event.

i thought it was a civilian who shot him?? not a cop

 

[MinuteMan47]

As for the article you posted,Boone County Police Department has a 1960's type wheeled armored vehicle. Not sure but I really doubt that it is amphibious. Even if it was who cares? It was military surplus so you you get what is available. I am glad they have the thing. It is available and there if needed. They are a ten minute drive from where I work. And for what it is worth, anyone who kicks on the BCPD needs to have their head examined. You will not find a better trained,motivated,equipped and led PD than BCPD. I challenge anyone to show me any PD that has done more to support the rights of any thing 2nd amendment than that PD.

Armored vehicles have a place in LE. Full auto weapons have a place in LE. Military tactics have a place in LE. They are all here and they are going to remain here. And not to add to your obvious paranoia, but most motivated PD's are scooping up all the military veterans that they can hire.

Comments like this reassure me that I am not paranoid. Thank you for clearing that up.

I thank the Boone County Sheriff's Dept for supporting our 2nd Amendment rights. But, we have more rights than just that...

 

[mrjarrell]

i thought it was a civilian who shot him?? not a cop

Civilians shot at him and one was with the cop who shot him, but it was an APD cop who did the deed.

 

[MinuteMan47]

The rise to current levels of armament of SWAT teams in this country has been occurring for a long time, longer than all but the most dedicated and long term conspiracy theorists have warned of imminent marshal law (no reference to anyone in this thread). It has occurred due to the steady increase in the violence which is becoming ever more commonplace in our society.

This is what we are training for. If you believe these types of incidents aren't coming to our shores or won't happen again you are fooling yourselves. We have been lucky in Indiana and hopefully we will continue to be but if something like this happens, who do you think is going to respond? What type of equipment would you want if you were going in to this type of situation? I certainly don't jerk off thinking about this kind of thing happening but there will be no mistaking my response if it does. I'd prefer to have what I need to get in there and stop the murderous thugs before they can rack up a body count. Maybe I'm weird.

Beslan school hostage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2008 Mumbai attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haha. I will send another rep your way when I can.

 

[jbombelli]

Armored vehicles are also available to civilians. So I really don't have a problem with the police buying armored vehicles. You want one? Pony up the bucks and you can get one.

My real problem comes in when they're allowed to buy full auto, without being subject to the same market forces as me. They're allowed to buy NEW and I'm NOT. So screw that. That is the ONE thing I am against them being able to do. Buy something I'm flat not permitted to buy, own, or possess. If they had to buy from the same pool of weapons WE all have available (i.e. pre-'86), then I'd have no problem.

Saying I can have them, too, when I have to pay $15,000 for a used, beat-to-hell POS that once broken can't be repaired if the wrong part breaks, while they pay a few hundred bucks for the same thing, only new and not beat-to-hell and CAN be repaired, is a BS argument and an insult to the entire purpose of the 2nd Amendment.


Why do you think LEOs aren't working overtime for a repeal of that ban? They got theirs, so screw everybody else.

 

[phylodog]

Why do you think LEOs aren't working overtime for a repeal of that ban?

Maybe because most LEOs don't care about owning full auto?

Did you march on Washington D.C. so that married gays could receive the same benefits as heterosexual couples? No? Is that because you got yours so screw them or because it isn't an issue that concerns you personally? (Using this as an example)

Back to us versus them I guess, I'm sure I instigated it this time as well...

 

[jbombelli]

Maybe because most LEOs don't care about owning full auto?

Did you march on Washington D.C. so that married gays could receive the same benefits as heterosexual couples? No? Is that because you got yours so screw them or because it isn't an issue that concerns you personally? (Using this as an example)

Back to us versus them I guess, I'm sure I instigated it this time as well...

They don't care about it because, hey... the department gives them full auto anyway.

No, I didn't march in support of gay marriage, because gay marriage is not a cornerstone to our existence as a nation of free citizens. The 2nd Amendment, however, IS such a cornerstone. It is MUCH, MUCH more important.



Or don't you see that?

 

[IndyMonkey]

They don't care about it because, hey... the department gives them full auto anyway.

No, I didn't march in support of gay marriage, because gay marriage is not a cornerstone to our existence as a nation of free citizens. The 2nd Amendment, however, IS such a cornerstone. It is MUCH, MUCH more important.



Or don't you see that?

So are you going to be at the state house Monday morning or are you driving strAight to DC?

 

[phylodog]

They don't care about it because, hey... the department gives them full auto anyway.

No, I didn't march in support of gay marriage, because gay marriage is not a cornerstone to our existence as a nation of free citizens. The 2nd Amendment, however, IS such a cornerstone. It is MUCH, MUCH more important.



Or don't you see that?

My point was that you were demonizing cops (again) because the majority of them could care less about full auto firearms (myself included). I stated earlier I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep if they took my issued rifle, put a semi auto only trigger group in it and gave it back to me. It wouldn't change a single aspect of my training or how I work because full auto isn't a tool I choose to put into my toolbox. Too much potential for rounds to stray off of my intended target and a waste of ammunition.

Bottom line is, it's not my fault that the importation and production machine guns which could be sold to American citizens was banned. I had nothing to do with it, didn't support it, wouldn't support it if it came about now. Yet I'm demonized as if it were my fault because I wear a badge.

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[MinuteMan47]

So are you going to be at the state house Monday morning or are you driving strAight to DC?

How many times are you going to use that line? Oh yeah, you're trying to get to 4,000 by August. Carry on.

 

[jbombelli]

My point was that you were demonizing cops (again) because the majority of them could care less about full auto firearms (myself included). I stated earlier I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep if they took my issued rifle, put a semi auto only trigger group in it and gave it back to me. It wouldn't change a single aspect of my training or how I work because full auto isn't a tool I choose to put into my toolbox. Too much potential for rounds to stray off of my intended target and a waste of ammunition.

Bottom line is, it's not my fault that the importation and production machine guns which could be sold to American citizens was banned. I had nothing to do with it, didn't support it, wouldn't support it if it came about now. Yet I'm demonized as if it were my fault because I wear a badge.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Well, that's you. Believe me, I've had MUCH different conversations with plenty of other officers, who DEMAND full-auto, because they "need it", and are quite happy with it not being available to others. All I was saying is this: the entire situation is counter to the meaning and intent of the 2nd Amendment.

Now, as far as demonizing cops goes... if you'll go back through all of my posts, you'll see I have *never* demonized cops as a whole. I don't dislike cops. I just dislike a-holes with badges. I also dislike a-holes WITHOUT badges. If I came across as accusatory toward you, specifically, that was not my intent and I apologize. Please understand, I never went to sweet-talkin' school, and sometimes I get a little abrasive. I'll be the first to admit that. And hell, sometimes I go back and read what I've written, or thought about what I've said, and after thinking about it I don't agree with it.

Finally, regarding rounds off target, and not using full auto in a practical sense, I agree with you on that. Personally, I highly doubt I would have much use for full auto in a fight. I haven't trained in its use nearly enough to make it effective, and I don't have a truckload full of ammunition behind me. So it would not make much sense for me to use it. Perfect example: two yahoos rob a bank in North Hollywood, blast ammo all over the place, and the only two people dead are THEM. Now, if they had used M1As, and properly sighted in their rifles, the outcome might have been much worse. So the police are probably THANKFUL they were using full autos, and blasting rounds everywhere, instead of controlled semi-automatic fire. Or at least they SHOULD be!

 

[jbombelli]

So are you going to be at the state house Monday morning or are you driving strAight to DC?

Why, is there some pro 2nd Amendment march on the state house I haven't heard about? Or are you suggesting that I go attack the capital building? What is your point in that question?

But if you must know, I'm going to be at work Monday morning, putting food in my kids' stomachs. Is that okay with you?

Where are YOU going to be Monday morning? Burning liberty-minded folks in effigy? Or are you just going to worship at the altar of the state, and pray that your chains rest lightly upon you?

 

[phylodog]

Middle ground acquired