SWAT Team invades home and kills dog for a joint.

[MinuteMan47]

" There is a reason why you should separate military and the police.
One fights the enemy of the State.
The other serves to protect the people.
When the military becomes both.
Then the enemies of the State tend to become the people. "

Commander William Adama

Good quote, Duncan.

I don't know if everyone is familar with how SWAT actually originated. SWAT, which NOW stands for Special Weapons and Tactics, originally stood for SPECIAL WEAPONS ATTACK TEAM. Attack team?? Really?? I thought the purpose of Law Enforcement was to maintain order with the least amount of force.

PLEASE! Read this article from Popular Mechanics. It touches on everything we have talked about in this thread... - SWAT Overkill: The Danger of a Paramilitary Police Force - Popular Mechanics ...it even talks about the Boone County Sheriff's Dept and how they have an "amphibious armored personnel carrier". It was claimed to be used for delivering prescribed medications to the elderly in snow storms... SURE!

Police Departments have no business with MP5s and M16, armored vehicles, and as Duncan said BAYONETS? For what? As, I stated in another thread, one point of the 2nd Amendment is so that the Citizens of the United States are as equally armed as the government...This is getting out of hand.

I pray that a disaster doesn't hit Indy and they try to make the people evacuate their homes. You WILL NOT put me in a FEMA CAMP...Sorry! Isn't happening. Just like Katrina, and they went house to house and disarmed the citizens.........haha.......I won't type anymore. I am probably on a watch list already thanks to the "Patriot" Act. Very Patriotic to spy on your own people. But, its for our own good.

 

[Ogre]

I pray that a disaster doesn't hit Indy and they try to make the people evacuate their homes. You WILL NOT put me in a FEMA CAMP...Sorry! Isn't happening. Just like Katrina, and they went house to house and disarmed the citizens.........haha.......I won't type anymore. I am probably on a watch list already thanks to the "Patriot" Act. Very Patriotic to spy on your own people. But, its for our own good.

If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have anything to worry about!

 

[phylodog]

Police Departments have no business with MP5s and M16, armored vehicles, and as Duncan said BAYONETS? For what? As, I stated in another thread, one point of the 2nd Amendment is so that the Citizens of the United States are as equally armed as the government...This is getting out of hand.

I agree 100%. Slingshots and donkeys should be sufficient.

 

[MinuteMan47]

I agree 100%. Slingshots and donkeys should be sufficient.

Very intelligent. Why don't you explain your smarta$$ comment...even though it wasn't purple.

 

[phylodog]

My smart ass comment was in reference to your absurd statement that police shouldn't have MP-5s, M16s and armored vehicles.

Perhaps you would like to be undergunned if you were saddled with stopping someone who is armed with a rifle and shooting at people but I don't. If it were up to me you would be able to walk into Walmart and buy an M60 machine gun if you wanted to but the fact that you can't doesn't mean that there aren't any in private hands. There are thousands of fully automatic weapons in private hands in this country. I'd venture to guess that 98% of them are legally owned by good people. The remainder are owned by those who have stolen them or who have illegally converted them and on occasion they are used against LE. When faced with a criminal who is armed with a high powered rifle I'd prefer to have the equipment needed to fight on even ground or maybe even slightly higher ground.

We've had a couple of officers killed by idiots with high powered rifles in Indianapolis. One of them was a friend of mine, the other I had not met. Both of the lunatics who killed them were killed by officers armed in the same manner that the lunatics were, with rifles. When my friend was killed I had other friends in armored vehicles which were being shot at. I also had friends behind patrol cars who were being shot at. The bullets went through the cars but not through the armor. Which vehicle would you like to be in while someone is shooting an AK, SKS or AR15 at you?

Do I agree with how this particular incident was handled? Nope. Crap police work to wait 8 days to serve a search warrant for narcotics. Do I agree with shooting dogs? I personally don't and I believe there are many killed who shouldn't be. Do I think the ISP or any other LE agency needs bayonets? There's not a reason that I can think of to have them other than to be used as knives for utility purposes (cutting rope, prying, etc).

I tried to provide an explanation of how/why things work with regard to search warrants pretty early on in this thread and it went completely unnoticed because it didn't contribute to the dog piling. I'm guessing this post will be treated similarly.

 

[MinuteMan47]

...There are thousands of fully automatic weapons in private hands in this country. I'd venture to guess that 98% of them are legally owned by good people. The remainder are owned by those who have stolen them or who have illegally converted them and on occasion they are used against LE. When faced with a criminal who is armed with a high powered rifle I'd prefer to have the equipment needed to fight on even ground or maybe even slightly higher ground.

.

Ok, and how many shootouts have you been in where you were up against fully automatic weapons?? ....Citizens can obtain fully automatic weapons...however they aren't provided for us free of charge like they are to SWAT teams. It would probably cost me $15k to $20k to get an MP5 or M16...

As far as your statements about the armored vehicles...I'm calling .

If you were to engage in a shootout with a criminal who had a high powered rifle how are you going to have enough time to call in the armored vehicles?? Unless we are talking about Waco here the odds of the shootout continuing that long are slim to none. There are numerous other ways you could protect yourself...ballistic blankets and vests with AP resistant plates for one. Those could easily be kept in your squad car.

If you can't accept the risks, maybe you should go into another profession.

 

[phylodog]

Ok, and how many shootouts have you been in where you were up against fully automatic weapons?? ....Citizens can obtain fully automatic weapons...however they aren't provided for us free of charge like they are to SWAT teams. It would probably cost me $15k to $20k to get an MP5 or M16...

As far as your statements about the armored vehicles...I'm calling .

If you were to engage in a shootout with a criminal who had a high powered rifle how are you going to have enough time to call in the armored vehicles?? Unless we are talking about Waco here the odds of the shootout continuing that long are slim to none. There are numerous other ways you could protect yourself...ballistic blankets and vests with AP resistant plates for one. Those could easily be kept in your squad car.

If you can't accept the risks, maybe you should go into another profession.

I do accept the risks, what do you do besides armchair quarterback?

You can call BS all you want. When Deputy Jason Baker was killed IPD and MCSD SWAT teams spent close to 12 hours searching for his killers(s). 4 or 5 hours into the search and after armored vehicles were brought to the scene Alan Dumperth was shot and killed by a MCSD Deputy armed with an M16 and shooting from an armored vehicle. That deputy and the others had taken fire earlier from Dumperth while in their armored vehicle, he had also shot at the IPD armor and shot two different helicopters. I guess handguns or shotguns would have been a better option to stop him as he shot up the neighborhood for hours. I had two friend of mine take fire while behind a patrol car. The rounds went through the engine compartment and came out on their side. They were extracted by IPD officers in an armored vehicle.

As I stated already, you could buy all the M16's you wanted if I was in charge. The fact that you can't legally buy one doesn't mean they're difficult to convert and as we all know, criminals don't seem to care that converting them is illegal. I have two friends who were both shot (not killed) by a turd with an illegally converted AK47.

Maybe you've got the balls to take on a murder suspect or meth head who is armed with a rifle while only wearing a regular bullet proof vest and while armed with a handgun, bully for you. I'll stack the deck in my favor whenever I can. You want the full auto capability of my rifle? Take it, I could care less. I don't use it, don't plan to, could care less if I had it, didn't argue to get it.

No one survives long if they only plan for what is most likely to happen. I hear people on here regularly reference the statement about preferring to have something and not need it rather than need it and not having it. I guess that only applies for regular folk and not us dirty, corrupt, power hungry, dog murdering, right violating, law breaking cops. We should only be allowed the very basic tools which might possibly have a minuscule chance of saving our lives.

It never ceases to amaze me that people ***** about the media or a politician using the actions of a few to restrict the freedom or basic rights of many, yet if we're talking about LE that goes right out the window. Some tier 3 "SWAT" team in Boogerville County Arkansas stomps on their peckers and now I shouldn't have the tools which just might save my life if faced with an armed and determined individual. Love it.

 

[IndyMonkey]

Handfull of parts that are available to the public and some knowledge = full auto m16.

Everyone wants the best available tool to do there job.

Saying police shouldn't have them is rediclous.

 

[VUPDblue]

Ok, and how many shootouts have you been in where you were up against fully automatic weapons?? ....Citizens can obtain fully automatic weapons...however they aren't provided for us free of charge like they are to SWAT teams. It would probably cost me $15k to $20k to get an MP5 or M16...

As far as your statements about the armored vehicles...I'm calling .

If you were to engage in a shootout with a criminal who had a high powered rifle how are you going to have enough time to call in the armored vehicles?? Unless we are talking about Waco here the odds of the shootout continuing that long are slim to none. There are numerous other ways you could protect yourself...ballistic blankets and vests with AP resistant plates for one. Those could easily be kept in your squad car.

If you can't accept the risks, maybe you should go into another profession.

You really shouldn't call BS to the person who's been there and done that. Unless you are intimately familiar with any/all IMPD/MCSD uses of the APCs then you really shouldn't comment as to their uses. You are coming unarmed to a battle of information...

 

[E5RANGER375]

give them AR-15's, fine. full auto's, no. not until i can walk into the gun store and buy them for the same money as them and no hassle. then fine.

a while back on here there was statistics that showed most guns used in crimes, have not been modified to fire full auto. i wish i had that info.

Very sad to hear of an officer or a citizen being gunned down by any crazy person or criminal. the above incident with the officer being killed, (IF im remembering the correct incident) he didnt even get out of his car before being murdered, so it realy wouldnt have mattered what weapon he had. also, i dont remember the murderers AK-47 being full auto? i thought it was semi? that was also a local fail that the guy even had a gun.

Phylodog, i am sorry for the loss of your friend. its one thing to lose a member in your field, but for that person to also be a friend is a whole other level of grief. my sincere condolences.

 

[E5RANGER375]

My smart ass comment was in reference to your absurd statement that police shouldn't have MP-5s, M16s and armored vehicles.

Perhaps you would like to be undergunned if you were saddled with stopping someone who is armed with a rifle and shooting at people but I don't. If it were up to me you would be able to walk into Walmart and buy an M60 machine gun if you wanted to but the fact that you can't doesn't mean that there aren't any in private hands. There are thousands of fully automatic weapons in private hands in this country. I'd venture to guess that 98% of them are legally owned by good people. The remainder are owned by those who have stolen them or who have illegally converted them and on occasion they are used against LE. When faced with a criminal who is armed with a high powered rifle I'd prefer to have the equipment needed to fight on even ground or maybe even slightly higher ground.

We've had a couple of officers killed by idiots with high powered rifles in Indianapolis. One of them was a friend of mine, the other I had not met. Both of the lunatics who killed them were killed by officers armed in the same manner that the lunatics were, with rifles. When my friend was killed I had other friends in armored vehicles which were being shot at. I also had friends behind patrol cars who were being shot at. The bullets went through the cars but not through the armor. Which vehicle would you like to be in while someone is shooting an AK, SKS or AR15 at you?

Do I agree with how this particular incident was handled? Nope. Crap police work to wait 8 days to serve a search warrant for narcotics. Do I agree with shooting dogs? I personally don't and I believe there are many killed who shouldn't be. Do I think the ISP or any other LE agency needs bayonets? There's not a reason that I can think of to have them other than to be used as knives for utility purposes (cutting rope, prying, etc).

I tried to provide an explanation of how/why things work with regard to search warrants pretty early on in this thread and it went completely unnoticed because it didn't contribute to the dog piling. I'm guessing this post will be treated similarly.

i actualy agree with most everything you said here.

 

[WWIIIDefender]

Cops should be able to have what ever they want as long as citizens can too, if not no way. At this point with all the equipment coming online I just hope I never see a video with a guy saying don't microwave me bro.

 

[VUPDblue]

give them AR-15's, fine. full auto's, no. not until i can walk into the gun store and buy them for the same money as them and no hassle. then fine.

a while back on here there was statistics that showed most guns used in crimes, have not been modified to fire full auto. i wish i had that info.

Very sad to hear of an officer or a citizen being gunned down by any crazy person or criminal. the above incident with the officer being killed, (IF im remembering the correct incident) he didnt even get out of his car before being murdered, so it realy wouldnt have mattered what weapon he had. also, i dont remember the murderers AK-47 being full auto? i thought it was semi? that was also a local fail that the guy even had a gun.

Phylodog, i am sorry for the loss of your friend. its one thing to lose a member in your field, but for that person to also be a friend is a whole other level of grief. my sincere condolences.

You've got two different incidents in mind, but both are equally tragic.

 

[E5RANGER375]

You've got two different incidents in mind, but both are equally tragic.

sorry. i wasnt sure. sad that we have any to even reference to be honest.

i will support police who do the best of their ability to weigh all the fact and execute their duties based on them to the best of their ability. we are ALL HUMAN and we ALL WILL make mistakes. but mistakes of shooting corgies isnt acceptable without punishment in my opinion, the same as me speeding 120 MPH isnt acceptable without punishment! i DO NOT worry about officers like phylodog having full auto weapons. i worry about officers who dont understand the overall big picture or who wish to act for their own means or revenge.

i fully support police having the tools to protect themselves from criminals. but by means redily availible to the citizens too. the 2nd amendments purpose is to level the playing field to keep all parties honest and have a mutual respect and fear for the other if one gets out of line. i think this balance is key. citizens are not above LE, and LE are not above citizens. we are equals who should have the same goals to preserve and protect freedom. maybe the way i say things make it seem like i hate all cops, but i will assure you here and now, and give you my word as a man, that I do not hate all police, and that I DO see them as neccessary!! but in the same token, i wish more officers were willing to explain their reasoning or proceedures, without lableing us all anti-leo, because we jump on cases of bad LEO conduct. the same as we shouldnt label all LEOs bad for the mistakes of afew. i want all of us to reach an understanding.

 

[MinuteMan47]

You really shouldn't call BS to the person who's been there and done that. Unless you are intimately familiar with any/all IMPD/MCSD uses of the APCs then you really shouldn't comment as to their uses. You are coming unarmed to a battle of information...

With all do respect, I do believe I can comment on this issue. The number of SWAT teams arming themselves to the teeth is absurd. Did you read the article I posted earlier today from Popular Mechanics? I have researched the issue quite a bit...and I am positive that I am not the only person who thinks this way. The probability of them needing all of this equipment is slim, and if anyone can provide statistical information I would be intrigued to read them (but my guess is those statistics don't exist) Some may say I'm wearing a tin-foil hat, but from what I have read the motivating factor may be martial law...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding_upon_missouri_and_nine_other_states.html


My sincerest condolences go out to those LEOs who have lost their lives while perfoming their duties.

 

[mrjarrell]

With all do respect, I do believe I can comment on this issue. The number of SWAT teams arming themselves to the teeth is absurd. Did you read the article I posted earlier today from Popular Mechanics? I have researched the issue quite a bit...and I am positive that I am not the only person who thinks this way. The probability of them needing all of this equipment is slim, and if anyone can provide statistical information I would be intrigued to read them (but my guess is those statistics don't exist) Some may say I'm wearing a tin-foil hat, but from what I have read the motivating factor may be martial law...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding_upon_missouri_and_nine_other_states.html


My sincerest condolences go out to those LEOs who have lost their lives while perfoming their duties.

It's not a matter of them arming themselves to the teeth, (altho that's discomforting, too). It's the fact that there are too many SWAT teams in this country and they all have nothing better to do than bust in doors for low risk warrant service. Every little podunk village and town with a PD has to have a SWAT team. Every government agency that can get away with it has to have one. This has led to a militant attitude that is dangerous in the extreme and has led to more than a few innocents being killed.

 

[IndyMonkey]

With all do respect, I do believe I can comment on this issue. The number of SWAT teams arming themselves to the teeth is absurd. Did you read the article I posted earlier today from Popular Mechanics? I have researched the issue quite a bit...and I am positive that I am not the only person who thinks this way. The probability of them needing all of this equipment is slim, and if anyone can provide statistical information I would be intrigued to read them (but my guess is those statistics don't exist) Some may say I'm wearing a tin-foil hat, but from what I have read the motivating factor may be martial law...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding_upon_missouri_and_nine_other_states.html


My sincerest condolences go out to those LEOs who have lost their lives while perfoming their duties.

I hope your daughter isnt getting out of class when the guy in the bell tower starts shooting.

 

[MinuteMan47]

I hope your daughter isnt getting out of class when the guy in the bell tower starts shooting.

How do you know my daughter!!!??? She's 4 months old BTW...

 

[E5RANGER375]

I hope your daughter isnt getting out of class when the guy in the bell tower starts shooting.

even a Special Forces team is worthless in that case. the damage will be done long before any police arrive.

 

[mrjarrell]

Ah, a Texas Bell Tower reference. It's interesting to note that that shooter was taken down by a beat cop, not a specialist. The police sniper in that event never could get a shot, because he was in an airplane instead of on a steady surface. That was the deadliest educational shooting till VA Tech...where the cops were no help at all. SWAT Teams and specialists played nor role in either event.