Southerners Are Dumb/Unskilled

[BigMatt]

As for the south...many people are incredibly ignorant and uneducated there. It's truly astounding. My mother is from Mississippi and I've been down there plenty. Not to say there aren't plenty of smart people, and even the uneducated ones (over 80% of the population, easily) aren't outright stupid. However, I can guarantee that on the whole the quality of labor in the south is absolutely lower than in the northern states I've been to. I haven't been to Seattle, but I imagine it's similar. While I'm sure Boeing would hire competent people and maintain quality, I don't think the fear of diminished quality is at all unfounded.

Like I said before, I worked as a project manager for a mechanical contractor. I have worked everywhere from Green Bay to Memphis to Indianapolis, to Cincinnati to Dallas, TX and I can say without a doubt there are smart, hardworking people everywhere you go in the United States. There are also uneducated people anywhere you go.

Just because people talk slower doesn't make them dumb.

Skilled trade unions aren't anything special. I agree that they are a good way to get on the job training while working in your chosen field of interest. However, they are not the only way for a skilled worker to get proper training in any given field.

I have also known a lot of skilled trade union members that go outside the union because they are hard working and can move up faster and get paid above scale rather than get the regimented raises like their union counterparts.

If the workforce in the South was that bad, I'm sure Honda and Toyota wouldn't have built assembly plants down there.

Finally, I know we are talking about Boeing, but we aren't talking about hiring 5,000 mechanical engineers. I'm sure there are one or two assembly line jobs at this new plant.

 

[RockofStrength]

I have long wondered at the current purpose of unions. We have legal ramifications for a company that permits unsafe business practices and the like: why do certain people working in certain professions "Need" job protection? Work hard, earn the going wage and if that going wage is insufficient or the job too much for you then go somewhere else.

Also, "Boeing is not a product of the free market—it's an extension of the U.S. government. Over the years, our taxpayers have paid to create a Boeing work force with exceptionally high skills. That work force is not just an asset for Boeing—it's an asset for the country. Why should the country let Boeing take it apart?"

I am not often incapable of fathoming the mind-twisting weirdness required to reach a bizarre conclusion. This, however, utterly stumps me.

 

[hookedonjeep]

Seems like only guys in unions and those collecting government cheese think that the concept of "fairness" has any place in the business world.

The rest of us believe in supply and demand.

You are absolutely correct, sir. Fairness has no place in the business world. Yet, fairness has no place in a true union shop, either. Fairness, by definition, would imply that all workers in a company (union labor or company suck) should make the same amount of money per hour; or other unit of compensation, because we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. However, that is both impossible and impractical. In a union shop, the WORKERS (the ones actually producing things) negotiate a wage and benefit package particular to their trade, and particular to the level of expertise involved in the performance of their duties. In a union shop, there are differing levels of pay for differing degrees of qualification. And, for the record, most union jobs are not jobs that Joe Blow could walk in from the street and perform without extensive training. The purpose of the contract is to provide a guarantee to the WORKERS that they will be adequately compensated for their toils.

Looking at it from your side, sir, you believe in supply and demand. I applaud you. So when your non-union job is on the chopping block, because your non-union company decides that a 200% net profit increase from the year before's numbers just isn't good enough, and there is room for improvement via canning you and the rest of your buddies that have worked your butts off to give your glorious overlords the stellar numbers in the first place; and hiring in a bunch of newbies (some illegal, some just willing to do YOUR job for half of what you are currently making - thus increasing their bottom line), and you have to explain to your family that wonderful supply and demand theory of yours..... (large SUPPLY of folks looking for work, willing to slit the throats of hard working individuals such as yourself, for nothing more than the PROMISE from the overlords that there MAY be a pay increase at some point in the future; and an equally large DEMAND from the Corporation for cheaper and cheaper labor - hopefully until we are all paying them for the priveledge of toiling for them)....... Let me know how that all works out for you.

Myself, I have seen both sides. I too, was at one time deluded about management's words. I too, slaved away, making far less than what would be considered reasonable. And in the end, corporate greed was the demise of my employment. I have worked union jobs ever since, and will never go back to being a slave to the overlords!

 

[steveh_131]

Looking at it from your side, sir, you believe in supply and demand. I applaud you. So when your non-union job is on the chopping block, because your non-union company decides that a 200% net profit increase from the year before's numbers just isn't good enough, and there is room for improvement via canning you and the rest of your buddies that have worked your butts off to give your glorious overlords the stellar numbers in the first place; and hiring in a bunch of newbies (some illegal, some just willing to do YOUR job for half of what you are currently making - thus increasing their bottom line), and you have to explain to your family that wonderful supply and demand theory of yours..... (large SUPPLY of folks looking for work, willing to slit the throats of hard working individuals such as yourself, for nothing more than the PROMISE from the overlords that there MAY be a pay increase at some point in the future; and an equally large DEMAND from the Corporation for cheaper and cheaper labor - hopefully until we are all paying them for the priveledge of toiling for them)....... Let me know how that all works out for you.

1. I didn't work my butt off to make my company more money. I worked my butt off because I was paid to do so. I agreed to work and they agreed to pay me for that work. Simple contract.

2. If there are that many people willing to do my job for half of what I'm making, then my job is too easy and I should work at learning and attaining a newer and better job, right? What makes you think you're worth all this money when there are so many people willing and able to do your job for less money?

3. I got laid off. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Explained it to my family just fine.

4. How did it work out for me? Fortunately I had spent my time and energy learning new marketable technology skills as hobbies. And I got a new job. A non-union job where my employers pay me what they feel I am worth, instead of what they are extorted to pay me. It's really a win-win.

 

[BigMatt]

Hookedonjeep: Some people believe in making themselves valuable to the company by working hard and learning skills that are required in the company. You believe in bullying the management into giving you what you want under the threat of a strike.

By the way, if the job you were performing required that much training and expertise, how did guys come in off the street and take you job? It doesn't sound like you had very good managers that would fire a bunch of highly trained, hard working individuals for some illegal aliens and throat slitters.

 

[45fan]

Different unions run things different ways. Just because employes are set at a certain rate, does not mean the hard working ones dont get rewarded while the others get the minimum. The unions are never perfect, but in certain circumstances they can be favorable for everyone involved.

 

[BigMatt]

I understand that. THat is how the Pipefitter/Plumbers union works in Dallas. The joe schmo gets paid scale, but the standouts get paid above scale. But who is to say the standout wouldn't get paid more in a non-union environment because the company didn't have to pay joe schmo so much?

I don't really have a propblem with unions, but I am not in favor of prevailing wage projects from government. I am also not in favor of Obama handing Chrysler to the unions. For unions to get my respect, they have to get by on a level playing field - not one artificially propped up by the government.

Different unions run things different ways. Just because employes are set at a certain rate, does not mean the hard working ones dont get rewarded while the others get the minimum. The unions are never perfect, but in certain circumstances they can be favorable for everyone involved.

 

[revsaxon]

I work in a field where there are no unions (at least IT isnt in a union, we interact with union members from time to time), so take the following from a purely academic standpoint but...

Unions always struck me an communism on a microcosm. Everyone is supposidly equal, you get paid a wage regardless of if you make 10 widgets or 300 widgets. You have no choice about being in it if you want to work in the field/shop and power is concentrated in the hands of the few. So it always makes me laugh when I hear about how every patriots duty is to belong to a union (not in this thread, but in general).

I think they had their time and place, but that time and place has long since gone. I remember back when I was working in NY, we needed to move a rack of servers from one end of a datacenter to the other. Racks are on wheels, and one reasonably strong guy should be able to push it across in 5 mins or so. In reality it took 2 days because we were forbidden from moving it ourselves (them a union job!), and it took that long for someone from the riggers union to show up and move it. So in that one shop, the union cost 4 sysadmins 2 days work (or 64 man hours). And we were litterally sitting around doing nothing, as those servers were the command and control units for the rest of the cluster. Tell me again how that helps anyone?

 

[kevman65]

The problem is, the worker that isn't so hard working gets protection from the union too -- as long as he pays his dues.

Let's clear this up right now. Production plant Unions may operate that way, skilled trade Unions do not. If you can't do the work and get the job done, you're RIF or laid off, fired, let go, hit the road. We also have no seniority system, no paid time off, as in holidays, vacations, sick days or personal time.

So, before you lump everyone into one sack get your facts straight because your facts are a mile off.

 

[steveh_131]

Let's clear this up right now. Production plant Unions may operate that way, skilled trade Unions do not. If you can't do the work and get the job done, you're RIF or laid off, fired, let go, hit the road. We also have no seniority system, no paid time off, as in holidays, vacations, sick days or personal time.

So, before you lump everyone into one sack get your facts straight because your facts are a mile off.

Let me get these facts straight.

If being in the union does not benefit you above and beyond the pay and benefits that your particular skillset and resume demands, then what is the point of the union?

 

[kevman65]

The legal ramifications for an unsafe workplace was gutted by GWB while he was in. He took the teeth out of OSHA. Mitch tried the same thing with IOSHA and got caught up in a ***tstorm. Read about what they have done to miners, MISHA has lost its teeth too. Read what they are finally admitting about our nukes and safety there, NRC was gutted.

If you REALLY think lawmakers and companies have your safety in their thoughts, you haven NOT been paying attention for the past several years.

Money out of OUR pockets goes to fight for safety in the workplace for everyone, not just card carrying members, and yet people have the gall to say Unions ONLY care about themselves even though every safety measure we fight to keep or improve helps more NON Union people than it does Union.

You guys keep having your biased opinion and believing the crap that politicians and businesses spill and eventually you will win and it will be sweat shops for $5 a week and no safety concerns all over again. Go do your reading on what has been done to the safety organizations in this country before you try to argue the point.

 

[kevman65]

Let me get these facts straight.

If being in the union does not benefit you above and beyond the pay and benefits that your particular skillset and resume demands, then what is the point of the union?

Being in my Union does benefit me. I have training available to me that I could not afford on my own. I have certifications that as a group was much cheaper for me to gain than it would be for an individual. Everyone assumes that Unions do nothing but take, but they give back too. The contractors ask for a new skill, the Union Hall provides classes for the membership and the cost for the classes is paid for by the membership.

I have been offered jobs in several places I have worked, to work the maintenance crew for the owner (client). I have turned them all down even though the pay has been equal or greater. I do not want to be locked into one place and one skill for the rest of my life.

I pay my dues, yes, but I also get back more than I pay in from the training offered.

 

[steveh_131]

The legal ramifications for an unsafe workplace was gutted by GWB while he was in. He took the teeth out of OSHA. Mitch tried the same thing with IOSHA and got caught up in a ***tstorm. Read about what they have done to miners, MISHA has lost its teeth too. Read what they are finally admitting about our nukes and safety there, NRC was gutted.

If you REALLY think lawmakers and companies have your safety in their thoughts, you haven NOT been paying attention for the past several years.

Money out of OUR pockets goes to fight for safety in the workplace for everyone, not just card carrying members, and yet people have the gall to say Unions ONLY care about themselves even though every safety measure we fight to keep or improve helps more NON Union people than it does Union.

You guys keep having your biased opinion and believing the crap that politicians and businesses spill and eventually you will win and it will be sweat shops for $5 a week and no safety concerns all over again. Go do your reading on what has been done to the safety organizations in this country before you try to argue the point.

There are some people who choose not to pursue careers that involve dangerous activities. They may even quit a job that they consider to be handled unsafely. In academic circles, they call this the "Free Market".

 

[The Meach]

I love all the pro union rhetoric. I hear it at work all the time, Buy all the dolts that were laid off by GM, Chrysler, Delphi, ect.

I work at a non-union production job. There is a reason they are firing and we are hiring.

 

[45fan]

I understand that. THat is how the Pipefitter/Plumbers union works in Dallas. The joe schmo gets paid scale, but the standouts get paid above scale. But who is to say the standout wouldn't get paid more in a non-union environment because the company didn't have to pay joe schmo so much?

I don't really have a propblem with unions, but I am not in favor of prevailing wage projects from government. I am also not in favor of Obama handing Chrysler to the unions. For unions to get my respect, they have to get by on a level playing field - not one artificially propped up by the government.

I understand and agree that the standouts might stand to gain if the average was lower, but I have seen, and worked next to my non-union counterparts at times. The "standouts" that are not at the managerial level tend to get payed less than me,and I am far from overpaid. The average guys, well, if their pay were the standard, I would probably be working at wal-mart, as the benefits would be better, and the working conditions better.

 

[steveh_131]

Being in my Union does benefit me. I have training available to me that I could not afford on my own. I have certifications that as a group was much cheaper for me to gain than it would be for an individual. Everyone assumes that Unions do nothing but take, but they give back too. The contractors ask for a new skill, the Union Hall provides classes for the membership and the cost for the classes is paid for by the membership.

I have been offered jobs in several places I have worked, to work the maintenance crew for the owner (client). I have turned them all down even though the pay has been equal or greater. I do not want to be locked into one place and one skill for the rest of my life.

I pay my dues, yes, but I also get back more than I pay in from the training offered.

So why not just take your dues and use it to pay for more education?

Edit: Ahh, I missed the part about the group price vs. individual. Sounds more like a club than a union.

 

[gunman41mag]

Being in my Union does benefit me. I have training available to me that I could not afford on my own. I have certifications that as a group was much cheaper for me to gain than it would be for an individual. Everyone assumes that Unions do nothing but take, but they give back too. The contractors ask for a new skill, the Union Hall provides classes for the membership and the cost for the classes is paid for by the membership.

I have been offered jobs in several places I have worked, to work the maintenance crew for the owner (client). I have turned them all down even though the pay has been equal or greater. I do not want to be locked into one place and one skill for the rest of my life.

I pay my dues, yes, but I also get back more than I pay in from the training offered.

out of the union dues, we get a pension

 

[miguel]

Always knew the Union was against the South...

 

[steveh_131]

out of the union dues, we get a pension

Ok, I find this confusing. Why not take your dues and put them in a savings account?

Why is it better for the union to hold it for you?

 

[gunman41mag]

I love all the pro union rhetoric. I hear it at work all the time, Buy all the dolts that were laid off by GM, Chrysler, Delphi, ect.

I work at a non-union production job. There is a reason they are firing and we are hiring.

if you're happy, not being union, i'm sure you haven't been in a union before