Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[actaeon277]

This is how Trump could start World War III

“The hope of continuous adult supervision is a thin reed to hang the world on. President Trump is not listening to his wise men. He is acting on his own…”

thehill.com

These were the days.

Once again, they were projecting.

 

[Leadeye]

This is how Trump could start World War III

“The hope of continuous adult supervision is a thin reed to hang the world on. President Trump is not listening to his wise men. He is acting on his own…”

thehill.com

These were the days.

I remember all the media noise when Regan took office about WW3, the nuclear winter, and "cowboy" mentality. TV shows like "The day after", talk show fear mongering, and the mockery of SDI. Funny thing, Regan pulled the plug on the USSR, the cold war and used SDI as a good negotiating tool even though in reality it didn't exist.

I really hope dc has some hole cards in this Ukraine debacle, it scares me because we really don't know who is making the decisions. It sure isn't Joe.

 

[actaeon277]

 

[DragonGunner]

I remember all the media noise when Regan took office about WW3, the nuclear winter, and "cowboy" mentality. TV shows like "The day after", talk show fear mongering, and the mockery of SDI. Funny thing, Regan pulled the plug on the USSR, the cold war and used SDI as a good negotiating tool even though in reality it didn't exist.

I really hope dc has some hole cards in this Ukraine debacle, it scares me because we really don't know who is making the decisions. It sure isn't Joe.

Yup put a end to the Cold War and then what did we get......Russia gave up a bunch.....now a war because they want it all back. In hindsight maybe we shouldn't of wasted all the tax $$$ conning the Russians we had certain weapons we didn't. Both countries ran up the military debt and to what ends......? We destroyed Russia and got Ben Laden and company and another war.....I rather of just stayed in the Cold War, left Russia to their own and minded our own business and be paying off our own debt. I don't know.....maybe I'm just getting old and tired.

 

[asevans]

I wouldn’t get caught too much in to the propaganda.
Remember Russia’s goals for their “SMO”.
Denazification of Ukraine.
Destroy Ukrainian military.
Not sure if occupation was in there.

 

[oze]

Yup put a end to the Cold War and then what did we get......Russia gave up a bunch.....now a war because they want it all back. In hindsight maybe we shouldn't of wasted all the tax $$$ conning the Russians we had certain weapons we didn't. Both countries ran up the military debt and to what ends......? We destroyed Russia and got Ben Laden and company and another war.....I rather of just stayed in the Cold War, left Russia to their own and minded our own business and be paying off our own debt. I don't know.....maybe I'm just getting old and tired.

I guess that I remember the 60s and 70s a bit differently. I remember the duck and cover drills in grade school, believing, because the teachers told us so, that our desks would save us from the debris caused by multi-megaton MIRVs that the Russians were aiming at us kids, 24x7x365. Because we lived in, what was at that time, a Region of industrial might of steel and oil, in the shadows of the 2nd largest city in the United States and a couple of miles from a Nike missile base.

Hearing the sonic booms on Thursday afternoons as the B-58s from Grissom AFB practiced their supersonic nuclear bombing runs on St. Louis was exciting to a 2nd grade kid. The knowledge later of what was going on in the world and the "Doomsday Clock" was never buried too deeply in our minds as we grew old enough to understand.

Along came Reagan, a 4-D Chessmaster Cold Warrior who knew that the Capitalist economy of The United States could handle the increased defense spending required for the Star Wars bluff, and that the Communist economy of the USSR could not. We made bread and bombs. Russia ended up having to choose one or the other. The Berlin Wall came down largely as a result of the collapse of the Soviet economy.

Strange times are indeed upon us, and no telling what kind of **** that psycho Putin will try. But now, I don't feel the inevitability that Russia was going to start an all-out nuclear war, and that I am in the cross hairs of any first-strike scenario. In fact, I think that it is very unlikely. No, I do not wish to be back in the good old Cold War days.

All IMHO, of course.

 

[Wolfhound]

I wouldn’t get caught too much in to the propaganda.
Remember Russia’s goals for their “SMO”.
Denazification of Ukraine.
Destroy Ukrainian military.
Not sure if occupation was in there.

Well….the original goal was to take Kiev and install a puppet government. So Russia was planning to control the entire country. Maybe not military occupation by definition but control of the government, people and resources.

 

[DragonGunner]

I guess that I remember the 60s and 70s a bit differently. I remember the duck and cover drills in grade school, believing, because the teachers told us so, that our desks would save us from the debris caused by multi-megaton MIRVs that the Russians were aiming at us kids, 24x7x365. Because we lived in, what was at that time, a Region of industrial might of steel and oil, in the shadows of the 2nd largest city in the United States and a couple of miles from a Nike missile base.

Hearing the sonic booms on Thursday afternoons as the B-58s from Grissom AFB practiced their supersonic nuclear bombing runs on St. Louis was exciting to a 2nd grade kid. The knowledge later of what was going on in the world and the "Doomsday Clock" was never buried too deeply in our minds as we grew old enough to understand.

Along came Reagan, a 4-D Chessmaster Cold Warrior who knew that the Capitalist economy of The United States could handle the increased defense spending required for the Star Wars bluff, and that the Communist economy of the USSR could not. We made bread and bombs. Russia ended up having to choose one or the other. The Berlin Wall came down largely as a result of the collapse of the Soviet economy.

Strange times are indeed upon us, and no telling what kind of **** that psycho Putin will try. But now, I don't feel the inevitability that Russia was going to start an all-out nuclear war, and that I am in the cross hairs of any first-strike scenario. In fact, I think that it is very unlikely. No, I do not wish to be back in the good old Cold War days.

All IMHO, of course.

Ya the good ole days… lol. I’m not far from Grissom either. Never saw Russia as that big of threat despite Red Dawn. Always saw them as being parinoid and in fear of us and being invaded again. All the conflict and waste of $$ over each being afraid of the other. Back then we had one enemy and they weren’t killing us. Now we got hadji radicals that have killed thousands of us. I don’t like these days right now either. And while we keep poking the Bear and overthrowing other countries all while the real enemy is destroying us right here. I give you todays politicians on both sides. I sadly fear them more than I ever did Russia.

 

[buckwacker]

Well….the original goal was to take Kiev and install a puppet government. So Russia was planning to control the entire country. Maybe not military occupation by definition but control of the government, people and resources.

Well isn't that what we did in Ukraine? I mean we installed Zelensky, but without all the invading.

 

[Wolfhound]

Well isn't that what we did in Ukraine? I mean we installed Zelensky, but without all the invading.

Didn’t Zelensky receive 73 percent of the vote in 2019? I guess any election can be manipulated or at least questioned.

I personally believe the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco was mostly to blame for the Russians invading Ukraine. The West and particularly the United States looked incredibly weak during that withdrawal and I believe it encouraged Putin to do what he did. Which follows a pattern of Russian expansion that has been happening over and over again.

 

[DragonGunner]

Didn’t Zelensky receive 73 percent of the vote in 2019? I guess any election can be manipulated or at least questioned.

I personally believe the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco was mostly to blame for the Russians invading Ukraine. The West and particularly the United States looked incredibly weak during that withdrawal and I believe it encouraged Putin to do what he did. Which follows a pattern of Russian expansion that has been happening over and over again.

That and we kept getting more and more involved with Ukraine. The Biden and Obama crime families needed to stay out. No doubt we were pushing for another NATO country and money laundering place.

 

[BugI02]

Yup put a end to the Cold War and then what did we get......Russia gave up a bunch.....now a war because they want it all back. In hindsight maybe we shouldn't of wasted all the tax $$$ conning the Russians we had certain weapons we didn't. Both countries ran up the military debt and to what ends......? We destroyed Russia and got Ben Laden and company and another war.....I rather of just stayed in the Cold War, left Russia to their own and minded our own business and be paying off our own debt. I don't know.....maybe I'm just getting old and tired.

Actually, IMO, we blew an excellent opportunity to have a post Cold War relationship with Russia on a peer-to-peer level. They were/are resource rich and always have had excellent scientists, as evidenced by their ability to match us in scientific and engineering development despite having equipment generations behind what our defense contractors enjoy

Instead of engaging them in a constructive relationship, it seemed like we wanted to degrade their capabilities once and for all, which played right into the Russian xenophobic mindset and awaked echoes of WWII, which was far more devastating for them than us. So instead of keeping those scientists happily employed at home, there came an era of mercenary behavior by such scientists as the nuclear engineers that aided the DPRK and Iran in their weapons development ambitions, shaving decades off their rise to nuclear capability as well as enabling the rise of Putin as the strongman who would protect the fatherland

 

[oze]

Actually, IMO, we blew an excellent opportunity to have a post Cold War relationship with Russia on a peer-to-peer level. They were/are resource rich and always have had excellent scientists, as evidenced by their ability to match us in scientific and engineering development despite having equipment generations behind what our defense contractors enjoy

Instead of engaging them in a constructive relationship, it seemed like we wanted to degrade their capabilities once and for all, which played right into the Russian xenophobic mindset and awaked echoes of WWII, which was far more devastating for them than us. So instead of keeping those scientists happily employed at home, there came an era of mercenary behavior by such scientists as the nuclear engineers that aided the DPRK and Iran in their weapons development ambitions, shaving decades off their rise to nuclear capability as well as enabling the rise of Putin as the strongman who would protect the fatherland

Seems to me that we got pretty palsy walsy with the Russkies when Yeltsin the town drunk was in charge. Hell, I recall talk about letting them into NATO! Then Putin came along and spoiled the group hug. I think that believing that Russia would suddenly join the civilized world after decades of communist domination was wishful thinking.

 

[smokingman]

Didn’t Zelensky receive 73 percent of the vote in 2019? I guess any election can be manipulated or at least questioned.

I personally believe the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco was mostly to blame for the Russians invading Ukraine. The West and particularly the United States looked incredibly weak during that withdrawal and I believe it encouraged Putin to do what he did. Which follows a pattern of Russian expansion that has been happening over and over again.

After nearly 1/3 of the Ukrainian parliament was killed or "missing" and multiple political parties were outlawed(Ukraine has just one legal political party now just and FYI). Democracy lol

 

[Wolfhound]

After nearly 1/3 of the Ukrainian parliament was killed or "missing" and multiple political parties were outlawed(Ukraine has just one legal political party now just and FYI). Democracy lol

Kinda sounds like a Putin “election “. Lol

 

[smokingman]

Kinda sounds like a Putin “election “. Lol

He does have popular support. Not saying he is great or that he was never in the KGB,just saying he has done some good things in power. He restored and increased agriculture(was destroyed by the soviet system),manufacturing(see previous),and increased the standard of living for 98% of Russian's. He also won a few conflicts(that whole Chechen's bombing a theater turned out to be a bad idea for them).
He has increased Russia's allies and trade(over doubled GDP since he took office). Backed the ruble with gold.

I do not believe he is a dictator and even Swiss run polls put him at more than 87% approval in Russia.

Is he feared in Russia? Somewhat. But not enough that their education system has not had the same liberal problem as ours. The difference is their government passes laws against things like grooming and jails offenders for a very long time.

He has the support of the majority of religions in Russia.

I do not think many countries have a leader that looks out for their countries interest first vs global politics. He seems to.

Russia also has a republic form of government(based on the USA's largely). I grew up with the son of one of the first US lawyers to go to Russia in 1991 to help them reform their government and constitution(she failed early on,it was not until 1993 a new constitution was passed and she helped write it). Imagine the look on some peoples face if they found out a Lithuanian princess who's parents fled the soviet union found out she helped write the new Russian constitution.

Politics of Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bobzilla]

So you’re saying it’s all good that Putin invaded Ukraine then. I mean that’s pretty much what you’ve been alluding to for months. Russia good. Everyone else bad.

 

[Wolfhound]

He does have popular support. Not saying he is great or that he was never in the KGB,just saying he has done some good things in power. He restored and increased agriculture(was destroyed by the soviet system),manufacturing(see previous),and increased the standard of living for 98% of Russian's. He also won a few conflicts(that whole Chechen's bombing a theater turned out to be a bad idea for them).
He has increased Russia's allies and trade(over doubled GDP since he took office). Backed the ruble with gold.

I do not believe he is a dictator and even Swiss run polls put him at more than 87% approval in Russia.

Is he feared in Russia? Somewhat. But not enough that their education system has not had the same liberal problem as ours. The difference is their government passes laws against things like grooming and jails offenders for a very long time.

He has the support of the majority of religions in Russia.

I do not think many countries have a leader that looks out for their countries interest first vs global politics. He seems to.

Russia also has a republic form of government(based on the USA's largely). I grew up with the son of one of the first US lawyers to go to Russia in 1991 to help them reform their government and constitution(she failed early on,it was not until 1993 a new constitution was passed and she helped write it). Imagine the look on some peoples face if they found out a Lithuanian princess who's parents fled the soviet union found out she helped write the new Russian constitution.

Politics of Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, I would personally say Putin has been good for Russia the same way Saddam Hussein was good for Iraq. The list of people he has had murdered or made disappear would make the Clintons blush. Yes, Putin has done some things that are good for Russia. Sending part of their male population to their deaths is not one of them.

After we went into Iraq and took out Hussein I would joke that the only way to fix Iraq would be to install a brutal dictator. It was the only way they could be governed. Democracy just didn’t work for them. Still not going great for them.

 

[Ark]

Actually, IMO, we blew an excellent opportunity to have a post Cold War relationship with Russia on a peer-to-peer level. They were/are resource rich and always have had excellent scientists, as evidenced by their ability to match us in scientific and engineering development despite having equipment generations behind what our defense contractors enjoy

Instead of engaging them in a constructive relationship, it seemed like we wanted to degrade their capabilities once and for all, which played right into the Russian xenophobic mindset and awaked echoes of WWII, which was far more devastating for them than us. So instead of keeping those scientists happily employed at home, there came an era of mercenary behavior by such scientists as the nuclear engineers that aided the DPRK and Iran in their weapons development ambitions, shaving decades off their rise to nuclear capability as well as enabling the rise of Putin as the strongman who would protect the fatherland

What it basically boiled down to IMO is that the US/NATO goal for Russia after the Cold War was a neutered, compliant state that could be converted into a bottomless strip mine/oil well/timber forest to exploit at our lesiure. Europe happily closed up their industry and shifted to pumping out Russian gas. Yeltsin's buffoonery played right into that, until someone else came along and decided Russia should act like a nation again.

We have absolutely no intention of ever treating Russia like an equal. The whole motive behind our involvement in this war is the belief that we can run the Afghanistan cycle again, collapse them again, and loot them of resources for another couple decades. I think we have always related to Russia in bad faith, and they know it, and have frequently returned the favor.

Such a waste.

 

[smokingman]

Well, I would personally say Putin has been good for Russia the same way Saddam Hussein was good for Iraq. The list of people he has had murdered or made disappear would make the Clintons blush. Yes, Putin has done some things that are good for Russia. Sending part of their male population to their deaths is not one of them.

After we went into Iraq and took out Hussein I would joke that the only way to fix Iraq would be to install a brutal dictator. It was the only way they could be governed. Democracy just didn’t work for them. Still not going great for them.

The USA put Saddam in power for our benefit when Kennedy approved the CIA op to change leadership in Iraq. That is certainly one difference.