Rule Number One: All Guns are always loaded

[bwframe]

People smarter than Col Cooper...

...all righty then.

 

[ATM]

People smarter than Col Cooper...

...all righty then.

Logic and reason do not respect a person's hero status or apply it so broadly as to approach infallibility.

Do so at the peril of those you instruct.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I've always understood that "All guns are always loaded" to have an understood (until you prove otherwise), meaning that when I pick it up, I consider that it could send a bullet flying if I squeeze the trigger or if a malfunction happens to occur just at that moment, until I check the chamber and ensure it empty. I can then do what I need to until I set it down again or load it, whichever comes first. Once I set it down, I have the responsibility to check it again when I pick it up.

Yes, I know that's one hell of a mouthful to explain in practice.

I see the point ATM and others are making, and I can't find fault with it or them. I am quick to consider new ideas fairly, but I choose to take my time when it comes to deciding whether to discard older information that has proven true for me, discard the new information as false, or blend the new information into the old that does not need discarded. Clearly, Col. Cooper was an exceedingly wise man, and his knowledge base was broad. He was, however, human and capable of error, and perhaps subject to the frailties of humans, including pride.

I am not wise enough to say that he was wrong here, nor that his pride precluded him admitting it, and I do not attempt to do so.

Burl, you made the purple comment that people are wiser than Col. Cooper, and I chuckled. The point, I think, is that it is not they who have proved him wrong, but rather time and experience, just as few are better read on the statistics of guns being used to provide safety, not create crime, than Dr. John Lott. The statistics are what "converted" him to our side and allowed so many of us to quote him. I read here that his initial view was "guns R bad", and he studied and found otherwise. Many here, probably yourself included, would have called "bunk" on his earlier opinions, and a similar comment could have been directed at you, "Oh, smarter than John Lott, are you?"... but in fairness, while your opinion has not changed, and the facts matched yours, I can see how Col. Cooper's position might not have been supported by actual, demonstrable fact as well.

Again, I'm not ready to call him wrong, but I also can't say he was 100% right anymore, either.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[JettaKnight]

People smarter than Col Cooper...

...all righty then.

You're quickly falling into an Authority Fallacy.

You might want the check with the late Dr. Milgram about this.

Col. Cooper, as wise as he was, wasn't always the best when it came to pedagogical methods. We can see this clearly when it comes to his rote number system of carry condition. I honestly can't tell what arbitrary number he applied to condition of the gun in my holster right now. Why not just use descriptive words? The world may never know...


As to whether or not the Four Rules work for you, stop and ask, "what other guidance and influence has played a part?" If you're honest, it may be that fatherly guidance went farther to influence your gun handling practices than sage advice from Col. Cooper.

Now when training the future, be it little Tommy Twentytwo or middle aged Suzy Sixgun, doesn't it behoove us to use the most clear, concise set of rules available? Starting off by telling them a logical fallacy the next fifteen twenty minutes to explain this fuzzy concept does not meet this objective.

So, while you can't teach an old dog new tricks, I am attempting to persuade you to teach the next generation a better set of rules to live by.

 

[indiucky]

Logic and reason do not respect a person's hero status or apply it so broadly as to approach infallibility.

Do so at the peril of those you instruct.

ATM,

Just for a minute there....I thought what I have always suspected was, in fact, true...You are Spock aren't you???

Does Houghmade know you are Spock??? When he finds out he is going to go spastic.....

Live Long and Prosper Sir......(I watched "Rat Patrol" on Sunday AM's in the 1960's so I am not really a fan, but I am enough of a fan to recognize your work when I see it...)

 

[bwframe]

How long will it be before the next person is injured or killed with an "unloaded gun?"

 

[oldpink]

How long will it be before the next person is injured or killed with an "unloaded gun?"

...or by someone who was only "cleaning" his gun at the time.

 

[jamil]

Was watching the Olympics these past two weeks. Many a shooter had his shotgun like this:

Pointed right at the crowd...

Are all guns always loaded?

Maybe you should correct him?

Pointed at the crowd? Was the crowd laying on the ground? I don't see them.

 

[ol' Huff]

The exact length of time until someone is injured or killed with a firearm not pointed in a safe direction?

One we of the INGOiest things is the "much Kung fu is bettrnyer Kung fus" argument and it always seems that, in this argument there is always an unwillingness to answer the questions posed by the other side. I think the position I will take is that I'm the Kung fuiest Kung fuer there ever was.

 

[crispy]

Pointed at the crowd? Was the crowd laying on the ground? I don't see them.

This was just an example. Watch for yourself if you don't believe me instead of arguing minutia. The shooters broke down their gun, put it over their shoulder and walked to the back pointing right at the stands. Every shooter. Every round.

The point was that NOT ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. That or these olympic shooters are reckless and should be punished.

 

[ATM]

How long will it be before the next person is injured or killed with an "unloaded gun?"

Not long. Your favorite notion dictates that to handle a gun safely you must believe it is loaded. Most people discard such nonsense and, sadly, anything which followed that notion.

The actual steps I instruct them to practice demand no such suspension of disbelief. They are easy to follow all the time and have no loaded/unloaded qualifier.

You'd like at least two of them, as did Cooper. He added them as #2 and #3 when his first attempt to vaguely oversimplify safe gun handling to one sentence failed miserably.

...or by someone who was only "cleaning" his gun at the time.

The actual steps I instruct people to practice don't disqualify guns that are being prepared for cleaning. There is no 'why' that you chose to break the safe gun handling rules, only that you chose to when you were handling a gun.

I find it refreshing to remove the most common reason given for unsafe gun handling from the equation completely - the perceived unloaded status of the gun. Keep clinging to that one at the peril of those you instruct.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

The National Shooting Sports Foundation supports the four rules and it is also taught at Gunsite Academy.
[video=youtube;yT_X1cCGD3g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT_X1cCGD3g[/video]

 

[ATM]

...I think the position I will take is that I'm the Kung fuiest Kung fuer there ever was.

You always come across most brilliantly when you are in agreement with me



...but let's not get carried away here, my Kung Fu is tight.

 

[crispy]

The National Shooting Sports Foundation supports the four rules and it is also taught at Gunsite Academy.

Why does the NRA not use his rule #1?

Actually, from what I'm reading, and I'm trying to find confirmation from a source, is that Jeff Cooper himself changed his rules later in life...

 

[jamil]

Why does the NRA not use his rule #1?

Actually, from what I'm reading, and I'm trying to find confirmation from a source, is that Jeff Cooper himself changed his rules later in life...

I don't know. Why does the NRA send me junk mail filled with fear tactics. Sometimes. Point is, the NRA is sometimes full of ****. Not that their gun safety rules are bad, just saying I don't necessarily consider them the last word on all stuff guns.

 

[JettaKnight]

The National Shooting Sports Foundation supports the four rules

But they don't teach it.

...and it is also taught at Gunsite Academy.

Is anyone surprised that the organization started by Col. Cooper continues to use the rules he created?

 

[ATM]

Why does the NRA not use his rule #1?

Likely because they want people to learn how to actually handle guns safely.

Without attempting to develop an oversimplified metaphorical "big boy rule" favored by many heroes and professionals, they can instruct in specifics which require very little explanation and afford no excuses for violation.

 

[crispy]

I don't understand why you guys are all hung up on a "rule" that isn't even a rule, but rather a statement and on top of that, a statement that isn't even true.

If the point is to get people to treat all guns as if they are always loaded, I get that. But the man himself rejected that modification.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

Gunny and TEAM GLOCK rockin' the 4 rules.


[video=youtube;KTuYS857lOE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTuYS857lOE[/video]

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't understand why you guys are all hung up on a "rule" that isn't even a rule, but rather a statement and on top of that, a statement that isn't even true.

If the point is to get people to treat all guns as if they are always loaded, I get that. But the man himself rejected that modification.

But as we've read in this thread it doesn't. Go back and count the posts where INGO'ers say, "all guns are always loaded; so I check and unload it myself, then I do what I want because it's safe at that point."

That, right there, is Beard Logic.