Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[churchmouse]

Could be, or also not. Really can't say definitively from that photo. Do most people wind up to a fully extended shoulder fly position with their arm to effect a slap? It looks more like a "whoa!" or a, "what's up, bro?!?" gesture type position. But, he could be wheeling back to slap.

It all depends. Have you ever slapped someone hard enough for their future children to be born dizzy.

 

[chipbennett]

A few more frames later, yep. Moral of the story, then don’t slap people and then try to PS them. That slap itself, I don’t see why it’s verboten to draw down on the assailant. The PS, an incapacitation agent, raises the ante. SB already committed to violence, should I allow him to hinder my ability further, with the “hopes” his violence will cease? Nope. I’m not that guy. I’ll leave my fate to a jury rather than some random guy on the street, who has already struck me.
I image if it was young kid doing the slapping, and PS-ing, opinions would be different, add a few more identifiers, and it becomes even more so.

So, this is as close as you've come to positing a theory. The problem is, you have the facts incorrect based on existing evidence. Again:

1. Doloff initiated the interaction between Doloff and Keltner.
2. Doloff initiated physical contact.
2. Doloff pulled his firearm while Keltner was backing away and before he raised the hand with the pepper spray

And you ignore the other moral of the story: don't be the initial physical aggressor and then claim self-defense when you escalate a slap to deadly force.

 

[chipbennett]

It all depends. Have you ever slapped someone hard enough for their future children to be born dizzy.

I'm not sure I've ever even slapped anyone, period?

 

[chipbennett]

I think he said “going for ‘a’ gun.” If he hadn’t noticed the pepper spray, and was unaware of the gun, the motion of SB’s arm may had him believe he was presenting a gun.

That defense, IMHO, would not pass the reasonable man standard/test. A can of pepper spray does not reasonably look like a firearm. And if he thought it was a firearm, a reasonable man would not approach, engage, and initiate physical contact/force with a person holding said firearm. Further, One does not "go for" a gun that one is already holding in his hand.

 

[chipbennett]

He draws after the slap. We can agree on that right? My question to you, is if you think he broke the law, simply by drawing down on someone who slapped him.

Absent any other facts or circumstances: yes, drawing a firearm on someone who has merely slapped you would be unlawful threat of deadly force. It would be, to use the crime you referenced earlier: menacing under Colorado criminal statutes.

ETA:

(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury.  Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon;  or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.

 

[jamil]

Could be, or also not. Really can't say definitively from that photo. Do most people wind up to a fully extended shoulder fly position with their arm to effect a slap? It looks more like a "whoa!" or a, "what's up, bro?!?" gesture type position. But, he could be wheeling back to slap.

Someone posted an animated version of the photo sequence. It looks a lot more like a windup than a "whoa!" Though I don't think it's important, I don't have a problem with saying it looks like Keltner was winding up his slap in that very first photo. It's immaterial. Keltner slapping Dolloff is not in question. It would stand to reason that as hard as it looks like he slapped Dolloff, he'd have committed to slapping Dolloff at some point before slapping him and probably had some momentum to it. Because. You know. He slapped him. Hard. Being slapped isn't a cause for deadly force. I dunno. Maybe Dolloff peed a little and that made him go for his gun.

 

[jamil]

Absent any other facts or circumstances: yes, drawing a firearm on someone who has merely slapped you would be unlawful threat of deadly force. It would be, to use the crime you referenced earlier: menacing under Colorado criminal statutes.

ETA:

That would pretty much cover it. Thanks for posting that. I really didn't have time to look up laws that might apply.

 

[2A_Tom]

Bla, bla, bla, bla.

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

Bla, bla.

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

 

[Route 45]

Bla, bla, bla, bla.

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

Bla, bla.

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

https://apnews.com/article/us-news-shootings-denver-d1b15ad65b0c8ec828758df1d9da2749

A lawyer who said he represented Dolloff’s family, Doug Richards, said on Monday that Dolloff opened fire because he saw Keltner reach into his pocket and he feared for his safety. The Post photos do not appear to show that. Richards did not return a telephone call and an email seeking further comment Tuesday.

Hmmm... one hand slapped him, the other hand had pepper spray.... this must be the other-other hand that was reaching for a gun... looking for this third hand in the photos.

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10...f-lee-keltner-deadly-shooting-denver-protest/

Another man in the video can be heard saying that he has a press pass.


“The guy on the ground was going to mace me,” a man can be heard saying. “That was my security guard, he just protected my f***ing life.”

The producer basically gives Murder 2 testimony on the spot against his "security guard"... he killed a guy to keep him from getting maced is no more helpful than he killed him because of the slap to the face. And also establishes that everyone knew it was mace in Keltner's hand.

IANAL, but I'm not sure if a court would even allow a self defense argument on responding to non-lethal force (slap and spray in hand) and while it would allow "a he reached for a gun" self defense argument, it would be farcical with the AP photos.

I'm thinking that only leaves accidental discharge (Negligent Homicide) unless Dolloff has already stated the shooting was intentional.

 

[chipbennett]

IANAL, but I'm not sure if a court would even allow a self defense argument on responding to non-lethal force (slap and spray in hand) and while it would allow "a he reached for a gun" self defense argument, it would be farcical with the AP photos.

I'm thinking that only leaves accidental discharge (Negligent Homicide) unless Dolloff has already stated the shooting was intentional.

From your own quote:

A lawyer who said he represented Dolloff’s family, Doug Richards, said on Monday that Dolloff opened fire because he saw Keltner reach into his pocket and he feared for his safety.

 

[dusty88]

Verbage matters also, right? We don't know if someone said "I'm going to kill you" or, conversely, said "please stay back"

 

[Keith_Indy]

Here's a decent unpacking of the Doloff situation by a criminal defense lawyer. This guy did a good job breaking down the Rittenhouse shooting as well.

At this point, it's up to the legal system in Colorado to decide the outcome. All our bickering isn't going to solve the case.

Relevant CO statutes...

Self Defense: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-18-criminal-code/co-rev-st-sect-18-1-704.html

1st Degree Murder: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-18-criminal-code/co-rev-st-sect-18-3-102.html

2nd Degree Murder: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-18-criminal-code/co-rev-st-sect-18-3-103.html

1st Degree Assault: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-18-criminal-code/co-rev-st-sect-18-3-202.html

2nd Degree Assault: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-18-criminal-code/co-rev-st-sect-18-3-203.html


[video=youtube_share;rd4r3-wTu6s]https://youtu.be/rd4r3-wTu6s[/video]

 

[Kutnupe14]

Absent any other facts or circumstances: yes, drawing a firearm on someone who has merely slapped you would be unlawful threat of deadly force. It would be, to use the crime you referenced earlier: menacing under Colorado criminal statutes.

ETA:

Well admittedly, in a vacuum, I’d agree. In this situation, we’re not “absent any other facts and circumstances.” We know the background.

 

[Keith_Indy]

ok, because this thread needs some levity...

Who shot first!

 

[Tombs]

Democrats being democrats:

 

[Leadeye]

Democrats being democrats:

I find that really amusing.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Democrats being democrats:

If it was known who was responsible for sending that, my advice to them would be to make sure that their last will and testament are in order if they attempt to harm me and mine.

 

[chipbennett]

ok, because this thread needs some levity...

Who shot first!

I don't even need to click the link. The answer is: Han.

 

[chipbennett]

Well admittedly, in a vacuum, I’d agree. In this situation, we’re not “absent any other facts and circumstances.” We know the background.

We do. So then, the question becomes: what are the qualifiers that makes an otherwise unjustifiable use (or threat of use) of deadly force, justified.