Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[Kutnupe14]

It sounds like Colorado law is not on your side here.

Didn't he already claim he drew and fired because the victim was going for his gun? There certainly is no photographic evidence of that.

I think he said “going for ‘a’ gun.” If he hadn’t noticed the pepper spray, and was unaware of the gun, the motion of SB’s arm may had him believe he was presenting a gun.

 

[2A_Tom]

I think he said “going for ‘a’ gun.” If he hadn’t noticed the pepper spray, and was unaware of the gun, the motion of SB’s arm may had him believe he was presenting a gun.

That would mean he is dumber than I thought.

 

[Kutnupe14]

That would mean he is dumber than I thought.

You think his actions unreasonable to believe that?

 

[Route 45]

I must have hurt your feelings again. And obviously, Identifiers make a difference. No way, I would get away with all the insults that you throw my way. But hey I come from an unpopular group. I hope your mind reading ability doesn’t fail you again. Feel free to place me on ignore, yet again... we both know you'll be running back to "Papa Kut's" arms eventually.

Can you see your house from up there on that cross?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Can you see your house from up there on that cross?

Which cross are you talking about?

 

[NKBJ]

Wow. Politically motivated violence has Christians being beheaded, our cities burning, our bombs dropping on cities, billions being spent on the latest lethal bells and whistles and the arguments here are over the minutiae of hearsay concerning...
What was that?
Oh yeah, it was a young maniac making a political statement by a plan that he had previously discussed in social media!!!

Duh.

 

[jamil]

A few more frames later, yep. Moral of the story, then don’t slap people and then try to PS them. That slap itself, I don’t see why it’s verboten to draw down on the assailant. The PS, an incapacitation agent, raises the ante. SB already committed to violence, should I allow him to hinder my ability further, with the “hopes” his violence will cease? Nope. I’m not that guy. I’ll leave my fate to a jury rather than some random guy on the street, who has already struck me.
I image if it was young kid doing the slapping, and PS-ing, opinions would be different, add a few more identifiers, and it becomes even more so.

Dolloff starts his draw before before any of that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Dolloff starts his draw before before any of that.

He draws after the slap. We can agree on that right? My question to you, is if you think he broke the law, simply by drawing down on someone who slapped him.

 

[jamil]

You think his actions unreasonable to believe that?

The facts make it astonishing that Dolloff would not know Keltner had the OC spray. Did you not see the photos from 5 seconds earlier? Do you think Dolloff is blind too, as well as stupid? Every angle you try turns to **** with the photo/video evidence.

 

[tsm]

He draws after the slap. We can agree on that right? My question to you, is if you think he broke the law, simply by drawing down on someone who slapped him.

If you don’t think that’s unlawful, I predict a major drop in domestic assault stats will be replaced by a major increase in domestic murder cases. TDS isn’t the only mental disorder around!

 

[jamil]

He draws after the slap. We can agree on that right? My question to you, is if you think he broke the law, simply by drawing down on someone who slapped him.

Slapping isn’t deadly force. I would not have drawn on that guy, but then I’d never had gotten to that point in the first place. Angry dude talking **** like he’s going to **** up my client, carrying a can of mace or whatever, I’m going to put distance between the angry guy and the client, and keep me between them. I’m not gonna engage the angry guy unless other options run out. Keltner is dead partly because he’s a hot head and partly because Dolloff is a dumb ****.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Slapping isn’t deadly force. I would not have drawn on that guy, but then I’d never had gotten to that point in the first place. Angry dude talking **** like he’s going to **** up my client, carrying a can of mace or whatever, I’m going to put distance between the angry guy and the client, and keep me between them. I’m not gonna engage the angry guy unless other options run out. Keltner is dead partly because he’s a hot head and partly because Dolloff is a dumb ****.

Im not asking what you would do. I’m asking if the Doloff committed a crime when he drew down on SB after being slapped. Someone employing deadly force against you, is not the Minimum litmus test for Drawing a weapon in self-defense.

 

[NKBJ]

Many decades ago when my new wife introduced me to the concept of "doodie head" I didn't know what she meant. You know, I kinda thought maybe it was a slam against people who believed in God and country. You know, duty. Then later on I learned it meant people who were being ****heads but she was too polite to say it. Golly I knew there was a reason I couldn't let her go. So well, besides her wonderful baking and quilting and the way she... uh we won't go there, now we're inundated with those doodie heads again and she was absolutely correct. They've got **** for brains and it's a zombie apocalypse.

That's what it takes for politically motivated violence; **** for brains and enough sieg heil doodie headedness to go do what your told.

 

[jamil]

Im not asking what you would do. I’m asking if the Doloff committed a crime when he drew down on SB after being slapped. Someone employing deadly force against you, is not the Minimum litmus test for Drawing a weapon in self-defense.

I don’t know what colorado laws are on “brandishing” or pointing a firearm at someone. If they do, yes. Being slapped isn’t a valid reason to draw on someone, unless there is a reasonable fear that his life is in danger. That’s why I bring up what I would do. I do not believe that under those exact circumstances, that my life would have been in danger. And frankly, I’m a bit concerned that you think that being slapped under those circumstances is cause to employ deadly force.

 

[KLB]

Im not asking what you would do. I’m asking if the Doloff committed a crime when he drew down on SB after being slapped. Someone employing deadly force against you, is not the Minimum litmus test for Drawing a weapon in self-defense.

In Colorado, I would say yes. What gives you the idea that anyone was in danger of great bodily injury or death? I think he is going to have a really hard time convincing a jury that the only recourse he had was to shoot that guy, unless he has witnesses or video of the guy threatening to kill him or the reporter. Getting ***** slapped doesn't rise to that level in most people's books.

(1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.


(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:


(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;  or

 

[2A_Tom]

You think his actions unreasonable to believe that?

The prior interaction with the BGM agitator was going on right in front of him. Keltner had a jumbo size bear spray in his right hand during the entire encounter. He still had it in his right hand while Dolloff was acosting him and even after hs slapped him.

Dolloff was an idiot if he was not aware of it.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

A few more frames later, yep. Moral of the story, then don’t slap people and then try to PS them. That slap itself, I don’t see why it’s verboten to draw down on the assailant. The PS, an incapacitation agent, raises the ante. SB already committed to violence, should I allow him to hinder my ability further, with the “hopes” his violence will cease? Nope. I’m not that guy. I’ll leave my fate to a jury rather than some random guy on the street, who has already struck me.

We don't see the frames before, so we don't know who initiated the physical interaction. Could it be that Keltner committed assault with the slap. Could be. But simple assault, one on one standing toe-to-toe concentually, does not present a self-defense scenario... not even adding in non-lethal pepper spray in hand, which was there when Doloff stepped toe-to-toe.

I image if it was young kid doing the slapping, and PS-ing, opinions would be different, add a few more identifiers, and it becomes even more so.

Nope... same facts, same opinion.

Dolloff starts his draw before before any of that.

Yup, the frames show Doloff immediately drew following the slap. There is zero "post slap" gap to initiating draw... Doloff had already decided to shoot the man.

Keltner has retreated two full steps.

He draws after the slap. We can agree on that right? My question to you, is if you think he broke the law, simply by drawing down on someone who slapped him.

Yes and yes... most places, not sure about Colorado, the justification for non-LE to draw and point a gun at someone is the same as shooting them. Slapping isn't close.

Doloff did both.

The prior interaction with the BGM agitator was going on right in front of him. Keltner had a jumbo size bear spray in his right hand during the entire encounter. He still had it in his right hand while Dolloff was acosting him and even after hs slapped him.

Dolloff was an idiot if he was not aware of it.

This... the agitator that the news crew had been following for sometime yelled "You going to mace me m*********er? F***ing mace me m*********er. Come on, ****ing mace me n*****."

Everyone within blocks of the initial altercation was aware of the mace... if Doloff was not, he was the only one.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Im not asking what you would do. I’m asking if the Doloff committed a crime when he drew down on SB after being slapped. Someone employing deadly force against you, is not the Minimum litmus test for Drawing a weapon in self-defense.

Drawing no, shooting yes.

 

[jamil]

Drawing no, shooting yes.

Drawing? No. Not legal. That was not a reasonable lethal force scenario. It may have escalated to that at some point. We’re not there yet. I think Kut is rooting for a side.

 

[chipbennett]

First photo.... would you say he’s already committed to slapping Doloff?

Could be, or also not. Really can't say definitively from that photo. Do most people wind up to a fully extended shoulder fly position with their arm to effect a slap? It looks more like a "whoa!" or a, "what's up, bro?!?" gesture type position. But, he could be wheeling back to slap.