A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, [oops! You left out the part - right here - where Doloff initiated physical force, without lawful justification, by putting his hands on Keltner - and possibly, though certainly not verified to be, reaching for Keltner's holstered firearm] slaps you. [Oops, again! You left out the explanation for why deadly force is a reasonable response to being slapped (while still ignoring that Doloff was the initial physical aggressor] And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.
Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?
Good. This wasn't a applicable case of "Stand Your Ground." This was a case of some busybody thinking he was invincible, because he had a gun, looking for trouble. Manslaughter seems appropriate.
That’s not the question. I didn’t say anything about that I’d be okay with being slapped if I were Dolloff. I’m not gonna shoot Someone over being slapped. Things haven’t escalated to that point yet from what we see in the video. I just want to make sure we’re reacting to the same question. Was deadly force justified? That means, would a person reasonably be in fear for his life under those circumstances? So would you shoot someone so that you wouldn’t get slapped again? Because you kinda made it sound like that.A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, slaps you. And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.
That’s easy. Would I have feared for my life? No. So no guns needed to be involved. If his honor was sullied by getting slapped, I mean, he could respond in like kind. But it looked to me like he instigated the slap by putting his hands on the other guy.Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?
It's not like Keltner just walked up and slapped Doloff right off. The slap appeared to be the reaction to Doloff going hands on. Then there was a separation after which time Doloff introduced deadly force into the situation. From what I saw Keltner never did.That’s easy. Would I have feared for my life? No. So no guns needed to be involved. If his honor was sullied by getting slapped, I mean, he could respond in like kind. But it looked to me like he instigated the slap by putting his hands on the other guy.
Even assuming that the person being slapped was NOT the initial physical aggressor (unlike the actual situation being discussed), why are you moving the goalposts? That hypothetical is irrelevant. You have essentially just said that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. You don't get to rationalize that by changing the slap to some other form of physical contact.
The relevant laws being discussed:
https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/murder/2nd-degree/
What is second-degree murder?
Under Colorado law, a person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if the person knowingly causes the death of another person.
This distinguishes second-degree murder from the crime of manslaughter, which requires only that you act recklessly.
https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/manslaughter/
Under Colorado law, manslaughter is a less serious form of homicide than murder. You commit manslaughter when:
You recklessly causes the death of another person; or
You intentionally cause or aid another person to commit suicide.
Based on the facts as we now know them, that should help with the understanding of why Dolloff was charged with second-degree murder.
That is my understanding also. Recklessness is more typical in cases where there is a component of negligence, or gross negligence. The images in the public sphere do not appear to show negligence, they instead appear to show a deliberate act.Unless Doloff was attempting to use deadly force against someone other than Keltner but mistakenly hit Keltner (as has been proposed up-thread), manslaughter would not apply. Discharging a firearm at a person is an willful act with intention to use deadly force, not a mere reckless act that results in death unintentionally.
That is my understanding also. Recklessness is more typical in cases where there is a component of negligence, or gross negligence. The images in the public sphere do not appear to show negligence, they instead appear to show a deliberate act.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nd-your-ground-dont-play-stupid-games-46.html
Interesting.
[video=youtube_share;si54FfbCceo]https://youtu.be/si54FfbCceo [/video]
You seemed to have missed some elements.
So with all the things that have come to light since you are still calling this a good shoot?Doloff was the aggressor? Yeah, not so much. Spray bro issued a threat, and advanced on the photographer. Doloff stepped in between the two. That’s not unlawful battery in any code that I’ve ever seen.
So with all the things that have come to light since you are still calling this a good shoot?
Doloff was the aggressor? Yeah, not so much. Spray bro issued a threat, and advanced on the photographer. Doloff stepped in between the two. That’s not unlawful battery in any code that I’ve ever seen.
The only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.
because it doesn’t fit his political beliefs. He’s been the advocate of this very topic before when it involved Zimmerman and other bad people.Doloff was the first one to initiate physical contact, by putting hands on Keltner. Period. Verbal altercation does not justify the otherwise unlawful use of force (including putting hands on someone).
What I'm really trying to grasp here is your apparent position that verbal altercation justifies the use of force to prevent and that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. Even if Doloff were justified in using force against Keltner (by initiating physical contact), how do you justify the use of deadly force (gun shot) in response to being slapped?
So NOW you say that a face slap is the same as shooting someone. Got it. Well at least you’re consistent. That should be purpleThe only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.