Legalize It All? Harper's Weekly

[Jludo]

To sell to minors...?

Gangs run cigarettes to avoid State taxes, not to deal to minors. And most proposals to legalize MJ prominently discuss taxing it and all the revenue that could be put to use doing great things.

Run a trailer full of cigarettes from NC to NYC. The profit margin would be large.

There's a world of difference between a 15% excise tax on pot and the nearly 6 dollars per pack New York charges in taxes.
The fact that new York is so entirely upside down on, charging a nearly 150% tax on cigarettes and creating a lucrative black market, does not make a compelling argument.

 

[jsharmon7]

I don't have the answer, but I don't think our current response is doing any good. This is a total SWAG on my part, but I'd suggest that the VAST majority of gun violence is related to the illegal drug trade. Police, criminals, and uninvolved citizens are getting hurt and killed every day due to the war on drugs yet most of us could go buy illegal drugs more easily than we could buy Sudafed at the local pharmacy. Yet, we continue to fight this losing battle and those who suggest we should end it are looked at us drug users or lunatics.

The only problem is that drug use DOES cause crime. A large portion of the theft issues I deal with are related to heroin/meth/pill use. Impaired driving, child neglect, prostitution, and many other crimes are directly linked to drug abuse. Legalization won't solve that problem, so how do we treat those people? Will it be optional? Forced? Or, do we make penalties associated with crime related to drug abuse stiffer? I don't know that it's an easy answer. The heroin fairy doesn't come along and inject people against their will, so how do we hold them accountable for their bad decisions? In the end, finding the answer to that problem isn't as bad as continuing to fight the war on drugs.

 

[phylodog]

Where do you get that it would be endless offering of treatment?

History. Remember when things like welfare were put in place to offer a temporary hand up while someone worked to get back on their feet? Now welfare is best described as a career choice.

This country (liberals in particular) has developed a lovely habit of chipping away at the best of intentions until the initial plan is completely unrecognizable and we're left with a pile of **** with a hefty price tag and anyone who suggests flushing it is painted as the devil. The sad thing is how easily it could be avoided by answering simple questions in the beginning. Example: Should I be held financially responsible for the poor decisions others make? The answer is no. If you let a liberal talk long enough they'll convince most people why that isn't true if they'll only stop to consider blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and blah. I'm tired of listening to them personally, I'm more than ready to dig in my heels and go back to simple questions and answers.

 

[Jludo]

Stop and think for a moment about why that is your understanding. I'm in no way attempting to insult you but consider the push in this country to paint everyone as a victim. All we hear are excuses for people and attempts to deflect blame from the individual onto society. It is well beyond counter productive and has significantly damaged this country.

I just took two hydrocodones this morning. I've been taking pain medication all day, every day since February 9th when I had shoulder surgery. I am not going to enjoy the experience when I no longer have the medication at my disposal. I ran out a week ago Friday and decided not to refill the prescription, that it was time to be done with it. It was a miserable weekend and I was yelled at during my appointment on Monday and told that when it is time for me to stop taking pain meds the doctors will let me know. When that day comes and I take the last tablet I know from prior experience that I am going to experience some difficulties once the meds are no longer being introduced into my system. It is as that moment that I face a decision. The decision to accept the difficulties for what they are and deal with them or go out in search of an alternative whether that be illegally buying prescription pills or searching for someone to provide me with a substitute. That is my decision. I have not been victimized by doctors nor do I have a legitimate excuse for willingly going the way of an addict.

Have you ever taken a neuroscience class or read about it in much detail? I'm in the same boat as you, I have zero genetic predisposition towards substance abuse and can drink, smoke, take hydrocodone without the slightest issue. However I have come to the understanding that others aren't like me. For some people " just make better decision" isn't that simple. We aren't all the same, for some folks, simply due to brain chemistry, addiction is a much more difficult issue to kick.
None of this excuses people from their decisions, however we should recognize that for some the decision is much, much more difficult to make and sometimes requires outside help.

 

[phylodog]

Have you ever taken a neuroscience class or read about it in much detail? I'm in the same boat as you, I have zero genetic predisposition towards substance abuse and can drink, smoke, take hydrocodone without the slightest issue. However I have come to the understanding that others aren't like me. For some people " just make better decision" isn't that simple. We aren't all the same, for some folks, simply due to brain chemistry, addiction is a much more difficult issue to kick.
None of this excuses people from their decisions, however we should recognize that for some the decision is much, much more difficult to make and sometimes requires outside help.

I am predisposed toward addiction. I have struggled with nicotine for the past 25+ years. It has cost me tens of thousands of dollars, it is horrible for my health, my wife and daughter give me hell about it regularly and I've tried to quit several times but it never lasts long. This is my third go around with long term pain meds. The first two sucked when it was time to be done and this one won't be any easier. I will not allow it to ruin me however. Some may have it easier than others but that doesn't change the fact that it is a decision. That does not change the fact that I should not be held financially responsible for the decisions of others.

 

[Jludo]

I am predisposed toward addiction. I have struggled with nicotine for the past 25+ years. It has cost me tens of thousands of dollars, it is horrible for my health, my wife and daughter give me hell about it regularly and I've tried to quit several times but it never lasts long. This is my third go around with long term pain meds. The first two sucked when it was time to be done and this one won't be any easier. I will not allow it to ruin me however. Some may have it easier than others but that doesn't change the fact that it is a decision. That does not change the fact that I should not be held financially responsible for the decisions of others.

So the hypothetical if you can't kick the pain med addiction this go round you prefer this system where you'd be incarcerated because you lacked the will power to conquer your addiction?

I don't want to pay for rehab, or your social security, or Obamacare etc. However if someone comes in and finds a way to make any of those better, even if they can't end them, I'll back that change.

 

[phylodog]

So the hypothetical if you can't kick the pain med addiction this go round you prefer this system where you'd be incarcerated because you lacked the will power to conquer your addiction?

I don't want to pay for rehab, or your social security, or Obamacare etc. However if someone comes in and finds a way to make any of those better, even if they can't end them, I'll back that change.

I pay for my social security. I wouldn't ask someone else to pay for my rehab. I don't want nor do I like Obamacare. I don't believe you should be required to pay for my lack of will power and can't for the life of me understand why you would.

I have not heard a valid argument in this thread to convince me that exchanging what we have for taxpayer funded rehab would benefit me in any way, shape or form. The current system moves criminals away from me at my expense, there is a benefit there. The proposed system doesn't move them away from me at my expense, same cost and no benefit. All I want is a system that doesn't come at my expense, it doesn't have to benefit me but I would prefer that it doesn't cost me. I'll deal with the problems of drug addicts in my vicinity as needed just stop taking my money and giving it away. Let people do what they want to their bodies.

Our government has a pretty solid track record of not making things better by their involvement. I have zero reason to believe that government run rehab would be any different. Just another endless drain on the working class.

 

[steveh_131]

The only problem is that drug use DOES cause crime. A large portion of the theft issues I deal with are related to heroin/meth/pill use.

Crime and drugs go hand-in-hand largely because of prohibition. If we prohibited alcohol, nicotine, or caffeine we would see more black markets and cartels pop up in no time.

I don't get how people even debate this. We already performed the experiment 100 years ago, we know what happens. Prohibit a substance, crime inflates around it. Legalize it, crime deflates around it. You can't deny it without denying the very fundamentals of supply and demand economics.

Impaired driving, child neglect, prostitution, and many other crimes are directly linked to drug abuse. Legalization won't solve that problem, so how do we treat those people? Will it be optional? Forced? Or, do we make penalties associated with crime related to drug abuse stiffer? I don't know that it's an easy answer. The heroin fairy doesn't come along and inject people against their will, so how do we hold them accountable for their bad decisions?

The same way we hold gun owners accountable for shooting people. Or alcohol drinkers accountable for hitting someone with their car. Criminal charges. What's the dilemma?

 

[Jludo]

You don't get the choice, if you can't kick your opiate addiction, of paying for your own rehab, you'll be incarcerated. That's the gist of the debate, folks being locked up for having drug habits. If they steal, hurt, threaten, etc they still deserve whatever punishment they receive. If they are caught with drugs, having not not committed any other crime, we shouldn't lock them up.

 

[Hohn]

Freedom isn't always pretty.

Free people have the right to poison themselves.

Free people have the right to kill themselves.

All for it, as long as my tax dollars aren't paying for their mess.

 

[phylodog]

You don't get the choice, if you can't kick your opiate addiction, of paying for your own rehab, you'll be incarcerated. That's the gist of the debate, folks being locked up for having drug habits. If they steal, hurt, threaten, etc they still deserve whatever punishment they receive. If they are caught with drugs, having not not committed any other crime, we shouldn't lock them up.

That's not what we're debating. You and I have agreed that we both would like to see legalization as the current system does not work. What is being debated is whether the cost of legalization should be government provided rehab.

 

[steveh_131]

That's not what we're debating. You and I have agreed that we both would like to see legalization as the current system does not work. What is being debated is whether the cost of legalization should be government provided rehab.

You're not wrong. There should be no government-run rehab.

On the other hand, I've seen no evidence to indicate that this would be more financially taxing than the prison system. In fact, this source demonstrates that in California, one year of prison costs roughly $20,000 per inmate while one year of drug treatment costs $4,000.

Obviously I'd prefer to legalize it and offer zero government treatment options, but an 80% cost break sounds pretty dang good to me. While we're enjoying that cost break, we can work on chopping out the rest of the 20%.

 

[Hohn]

I pay for my social security. I wouldn't ask someone else to pay for my rehab. I don't want nor do I like Obamacare. I don't believe you should be required to pay for my lack of will power and can't for the life of me understand why you would.

. Actually you don't pay for your social security. You are paying for current beneficiaries to receive social security. Don't fall for the myth that you have some kind of account that your money goes into just because that lie is perpetuated by Uncle Sam.

 

[jsharmon7]

[/COLOR]Crime and drugs go hand-in-hand largely because of prohibition. If we prohibited alcohol, nicotine, or caffeine we would see more black markets and cartels pop up in no time.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. Heroin users spend a ton per week on their habit and end up stealing to pay for it. Even if it were legal and could be purchased at CVS they would still have to pay for it through theft and dishonesty. I deal with it every day and it has nothing to do with legalization. I'm all for legalizing this stuff but stop pretending the world will become all rainbows and puppies. Legalize the substance and find a solution to work with the addicts who are committing crimes in their communities. Nobody holds them accountable, but that's a different discussion.

 

[phylodog]

You're not wrong. There should be no government-run rehab.

On the other hand, I've seen no evidence to indicate that this would be more financially taxing than the prison system. In fact, this source demonstrates that in California, one year of prison costs roughly $20,000 per inmate while one year of drug treatment costs $4,000.

Obviously I'd prefer to legalize it and offer zero government treatment options, but an 80% cost break sounds pretty dang good to me. While we're enjoying that cost break, we can work on chopping out the rest of the 20%.

When was the last time the government started an entitlement program that didn't get swollen and polluted with fraud? The same people making billions in the incarceration business will simply switch gears and find ways to begin draining billions in the rehab business. Its unfortunate but that's the way it is. Every time taxpayers compromise they get screwed.

. Actually you don't pay for your social security. You are paying for current beneficiaries to receive social security. Don't fall for the myth that you have some kind of account that your money goes into just because that lie is perpetuated by Uncle Sam.

I'm clear on that. My point was that I pay and have been paying into social security for 30 years, if I draw a benefit I won't feel guilty that I'm taking from a system in which I didn't put anything in.

 

[steveh_131]

You misunderstand what I'm saying. Heroin users spend a ton per week on their habit and end up stealing to pay for it. Even if it were legal and could be purchased at CVS they would still have to pay for it through theft and dishonesty. I deal with it every day and it has nothing to do with legalization. I'm all for legalizing this stuff but stop pretending the world will become all rainbows and puppies.

This is nonsense. There is nothing inherently expensive about opiates, marijuana, etc. The stuff could be mass produced and distributed at free market prices for very cheap.

How often do you deal with alcoholics robbing 7-11's to score their next $3 bottle of wine? Do you ever wonder why that has changed so much since the 1920s? Because prohibition.

ETA: I looked up legal morphine prices, $0.23 for a 15mg tablet. Heroin should be even cheaper to manufacture!

 

[steveh_131]

When was the last time the government started an entitlement program that didn't get swollen and polluted with fraud? The same people making billions in the incarceration business will simply switch gears and find ways to begin draining billions in the rehab business. Its unfortunate but that's the way it is. Every time taxpayers compromise they get screwed.

Absolutely true - except for the compromise part. Even if they do drain us for money the same way they are with incarceration, we still come out ahead in crime and liberty.

Of course, they'd somehow have to figure out how to get 5 times as many people in rehab as they currently send to prison in order for them to break even on draining our tax dollars - and I'd say that's highly unlikely.

 

[Jludo]

That's not what we're debating. You and I have agreed that we both would like to see legalization as the current system does not work. What is being debated is whether the cost of legalization should be government provided rehab.

I agree with you that ideally it shouldn't.

 

[jsharmon7]

This is nonsense. There is nothing inherently expensive about opiates, marijuana, etc. The stuff could be mass produced and distributed at free market prices for very cheap.

How often do you deal with alcoholics robbing 7-11's to score their next $3 bottle of wine? Do you ever wonder why that has changed so much since the 1920s? Because prohibition.

ETA: I looked up legal morphine prices, $0.23 for a 15mg tablet. Heroin should be even cheaper to manufacture!

So you believe a person would walk into CVS and buy this stuff dirt cheap? I think you're delusional if you truly believe that. In the end, I agree with you on the point of legalization, however I think your Utopian view of the impact is silly.

 

[steveh_131]

So you believe a person would walk into CVS and buy this stuff dirt cheap? I think you're delusional if you truly believe that. In the end, I agree with you on the point of legalization, however I think your Utopian view of the impact is silly.

In a free market, yes. That is exactly what I think. It should be on the pain-killer shelf next to the aspirin and should cost just about as much.

Is that going to happen right now? No, of course not. But this is not an all-or-nothing proposition. Each regulation we remove will lower the price of the drug. Each time the price of the drug drops, it means that less crime must be performed in order for a user to obtain that drug.

Therefore, I support any move that deregulates drugs until the point that they are sitting on that shelf next to the aspirin.