IMPD officer shot, suspect still shooting.

[BehindBlueI's]

So, how's the officer doing?

I know the guy, but the last email said "no visitors" so I haven't bothered him. He's reported in good condition.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All the fluff about toys and calendars being the motive, though, you know that's condescending

It's the internet. You're tough, you don't need a trigger warning. AnyhowI'll sling arms on the snark and await real world examples so we can go over them and apply risk formulation.

 

[actaeon277]

I know the guy, but the last email said "no visitors" so I haven't bothered him. He's reported in good condition.

thanks

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok. Fine.

But I think we can agree it has to be more than "cops will die" if we don't get _______ (fill in the blank).



Alrighty then. Can you give me examples (public record if you can--I know every call out does not make the paper--but I trust what you tell me) of when the Bearcat performed its intended role and protected officers from harm where an ordinary squad car or ballistic shield would not perform as well?

Like a few examples and we can analyze them, and I promise to holster the snark.

Ballistic shields do not offer the same level of protection that a Bearcat does, in terms of cover, in terms of psychological effect, etc. I'm not tactical teddy and won't get into their tactics, but I'd hate to be the guy holding the shield for the negotiator for a couple hours.

When you have someone shooting from inside a structure, how do you maneuver a squad car into position to evac someone under fire without great risk to the driver of the patrol car?

Even in an urban environment like Indy, there are areas that a patrol car cannot drive without getting stuck, and again when someone is driving a patrol car they are not gaining much in the way of cover. The shootout with the bank robbery suspect in the woods was an example of that. 2010, maybe? Southside of Indy near US31. An armored vehicle was used in support of the officers in the wooded area. I'd have to confirm, but I *think* that's one where the Bearcat caught rounds, too. Now, if you are searching a wooded area for a suspect armed with a 7.62 rifle and you don't know exactly where he is...shields are of pretty limited use.

I'd love to see more shields in non-SWAT hands, but they are for different uses than armored vehicles. I'd also point out the cost of an individual shield ain't cheap. Figure $1500-ish per shield. How many officers does it take to evac someone using shields? You have to cover yourself, the people who will be going hands on with the rescue subject, and the rescue subject? And the risk is still much greater than using an armored vehicle.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It's the internet. You're tough, you don't need a trigger warning. AnyhowI'll sling arms on the snark and await real world examples so we can go over them and apply risk formulation.

I've no idea what a trigger warning is. I do know just because it's the Internet doesn't mean you should be disrespectful, even if you disagree.

 

[phylodog]

Alrighty then. Can you give me examples (public record if you can--I know every call out does not make the paper--but I trust what you tell me) of when the Bearcat performed its intended role and protected officers from harm where an ordinary squad car or ballistic shield would not perform as well?

Like a few examples and we can analyze them, and I promise to holster the snark.

I don't think the examples I provide above the night Jason Baker was killed will satisfy you. I'm guessing if the Bearcat didn't stop a bullet you will consider its use excessive. We will have to disagree on that.

I was a regular in the turret of the Bearcats. We drove them up into the front and back yards of many different places when we were looking to apprehend violent criminals known to possess rifles. It allowed me a great deal of protection I would not have otherwise had. It provided cover (not concealment) for the rest of the team while they stand by close enough to prevent the escape of someone running out the front or back door.

They have provided cover for firemen and innocent people on numerous occasions when someone was shooting or threatening to shoot.

It may have prevented an officer from being shot during the incident this thread was created about. It's pretty obvious in looking at one that a Bearcat is designed to stop small arms fire. I wouldn't waste my time shooting small arms at one in an attempt to injure someone inside.

So... in preparation for the response I assume I'll get, why do you carry a gun? Have you ever been shot? Have you ever shot anyone? Why do you attend training? If you've never been shot and you've never shot anyone there is obviously no need to carry a firearm or be capable of hitting someone should you decide to. It's the same bogus reason anti's use when they attempt to disarm us. If you're looking for examples of where someone shot at an officer and the Bearcat stopped the bullet, the last time that happened was the night Jason was killed. I don't believe one of our armored vehicles has taken fire since.

I did was a full size Chevy truck slam into the back of one of the Bearcats on Southport Road several years ago. There were probably 8 guys sitting inside when the truck hit. I watched the rear end of that pickup come 5' off of the groundm the impact was so hard it snapped the back axle in half. None of the guys inside had anything more than a bruise. Would have been a different story in a lesser vehicle. Not an applicable story nor does it justify the expense but it was interesting.

The cost of the Bearcats is a fraction of what Indianapolis spends to outfit officers with body armor that will stop handgun rounds. I don't see it as excessive or inappropriate to outfit the few who are called to deal with those possessing rifles with adequate protection when it happens. It's less than we've spent on an electric fleet. It's less than we've spent on electric rental cars. It's less than we've spent on a non existent cricket field. It's less than we've spent pitching in to fund a privately owned apartment building sitting on what was once public owned land that was given away downtown.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The shootout with the bank robbery suspect in the woods was an example of that. 2010, maybe? Southside of Indy near US31. An armored vehicle was used in support of the officers in the wooded area. I'd have to confirm, but I *think* that's one where the Bearcat caught rounds, too.

We have a name? So we can look it up and get more details.

I don't think the examples I provide above the night Jason Baker was killed will satisfy you. I'm guessing if the Bearcat didn't stop a bullet you will consider its use excessive.

No, not excessive. You might have me lumped in in the wrong set of loons. It is more of the Chamber of Commerce loons, than the camo clothing loons. I don't believe that the police are planning a Tyrannical Gray State with their armored car.

Excessive cost, not excessive force. All I want to know in Jason Baker is where the Bearcat would have helped him?

I wouldn't waste my time shooting small arms at one in an attempt to injure someone inside.

I am certain that you and the criminal gunman are not similarly situated.

I was a regular in the turret of the Bearcats. We drove them up into the front and back yards of many different places when we were looking to apprehend violent criminals known to possess rifles.

Before you had the Bearcat what did you (2d singular and plural) do?

So... in preparation for the response I assume I'll get, why do you carry a gun?

Because it is my civil right.

Have you ever been shot?

Do rics count? .222 off a boundary stake. Hurt like a you know what.

Have you ever shot anyone?

Good grief, no. I want to keep it that way. Well, almost a Rottweiler but a Park Avenue prevented me.

Why do you attend training?

I am a Scorpio, earth tones in the SIG Sauer Tac pants bring out my hazel eyes.

It's the same bogus reason anti's use when they attempt to disarm us.

I disagree. I spend my money on guns, ammo, training and tac pants, lots of money on tac pants. It is my own money, not the taxpayers.

If the police union bought one, then, yes, I agree, the questions are inappropriate and none of my business. However, public money demands public input.

It's less than we've spent on electric rental cars. It's less than we've spent on a non existent cricket field. It's less than we've spent pitching in to fund a privately owned apartment building sitting on what was once public owned land that was given away downtown.

Prior bad financial moves on the part of the City do not make the City immune from public inquiry.

However, those are outrageous decisions.

 

[Denny347]

Not wrong. I am asking a question, not stating anything. So, the last shots that the murderer fired were not at Jason Baker? The accounts that I have read are incorrect then.

But what relevance does it hold? Are you saying that Jason Baker should have been patrolling in a Bearcat?

Ok, having been through a walk through of the incident and heard the accounts of who was there first hand, here is Jason's story in a nutshell. Yes, Jason was ambushed during a car pursuit. teh suspect then fled the vehicle into the woods and started shooting everything they could see. Our helo received bullet holes even. It was hours before the suspects in the woods were dead (one was captured later and stood trial) but not after firing magazines and magazines of 7.62 at responding officers. The V150 from MCSD and the Peacekeeper from IPD were the only things allowing SWAT to put fire down on the suspects. I remember when a boyfriend came home to Brookview Apartments, grabbed his AK (variant) and proceeded to fire at responding deputies who pulled up responding to the domestic call. He proceeded to ram the rifle up his girlfriend as well. The deputies were pinned down behind their cars for quite some time until armor showed up. Sniper shot finally ended it. There are plenty of marks on our current Bearcats from rounds impacting them. I can tell you that I personally felt great relief when I was using a tree for cover holding my rifle and the Bearcat pulls up in front of me and takes over from the tree. Our negotiators work out of them. It allows them to broadcast form a close position but in safety.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that you are playing contrarian here. Something you are quite comfortable doing.

 

[actaeon277]

 

[IndyDave1776]

We need to get with Fenway about getting a graphic of the smiley beating a dead APC.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes, Jason was ambushed during a car pursuit. teh suspect then fled the vehicle into the woods and started shooting everything they could see. Our helo received bullet holes even. It was hours before the suspects in the woods were dead (one was captured later and stood trial) but not after firing magazines and magazines of 7.62 at responding officers. The V150 from MCSD and the Peacekeeper from IPD were the only things allowing SWAT to put fire down on the suspects.

So, the Bearcats would not have helped Jason Baker, but did help IPD stop the violence.

Thus, while there may be some risk for Indianapolis, what is the probability of that risk, per manhours worked?

How often is the Bearcat employed?

Are there alternatives to the Bearcat? If so, are they less expensive or more?

When it is employed, how often is it useful?

I remember when a boyfriend came home to Brookview Apartments,

If you can get me a name, I can get the details.

I can tell you that I personally felt great relief when I was using a tree for cover holding my rifle and the Bearcat pulls up in front of me and takes over from the tree.

Sure, I understand feelings. It's not like I don't have them. Just not sure that is the proper basis for public policy.

Not at all. With the current hiatus from the Mideast Wars, before .gov spools them back up, there is a push for gear such as this, even the Bearcats.

It is vital that these policy decisions be vetted so the taxpayer is afforded maximum information.

I know, it's boring. Especially when you have guys like Freeman who are not swayed by emotional arguments or blood shirt waving. What can I say, I'm brutal and persistent.

 

[phylodog]

Excessive cost, not excessive force. All I want to know in Jason Baker is where the Bearcat would have helped him?

Not Jason unless he would have been driving one but it undoubtedly helped many other officers who were sitting in the armored vehicles when the supsect(s) shot at them. Fortunately Jason was the only officer killed that night, a direct result of the armored vehicles.

Before you had the Bearcat what did you (2d singular and plural) do?

Both MCSD and IPD had Peacekeepers. Similar concept, older technology. MCSD was given a V-150 from the Lake County SD which was also used the night Jason was killed. It was completely rebuilt from the ground up by Fred Ropkey.

I disagree. I spend my money on guns, ammo, training and tac pants, lots of money on tac pants. It is my own money, not the taxpayers.

But why? If you've never been shot at or shot anyone, why is it necessary? All I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that not everything is done as a reaction to an event. It is not unreasonable for you to be prepared, it is not unreasonable for the police either.

If the police union bought one, then, yes, I agree, the questions are inappropriate and none of my business. However, public money demands public input.

Questions are not inappropriate, how they are asked can be.

 

[phylodog]

It is vital that these policy decisions be vetted so the taxpayer is afforded maximum information.

There is no way on earth you actually typed that with a straight face. Since when are taxpayers afforded maximum information so they can vet decisions? Taxpayers don't make decisions, politicians do. The politicians are supposed to be looking out for the best interest of the taxpayers but that hasn't happened in the last 30 years. They now pass legislation before reading it (Obamacare).

 

[cobber]

How do you quantify the value of the woman who was pinned down by gunfire?

Just like any other person--age, occupation, pre-existing diseases, etc. The City of Indianapolis does it all the time. It's not magic.

But what's a human life really worth? $5 in chemicals? Officers should just do the math. If value victim's life < value of officer's life, clear the scene. No sense taking risks for a comparatively low-value prole.


Unless it's your mother/aunt/sister/daughter, of course.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A 15,000 pound Bearcat will afford personnel protection from rifle fire and will not serve as a credible offensive weapon. I could build a better offensive vehicle myself with the tools I have available. By contrast, an MRAP is a much more hardened armored fighting vehicle designed to absorb attacks administered with much heavier weapons than a Bearcat can withstand. Further, this ~40,000 pound platform is much more capable of being used offensively. After all, it is a military combat platform, not a bulletproof taxicab.

Other than ramming things, how could it be used offensively? There are also times when ramming things is needed (see the Planned Parenthood post).

The MRAP is built on a IHC (sorry, Navistar) chassis. Other than the armor body, there's actually not much that's not off the shelf from Navistar. MRAPs were after my time (we were still rocking the shoebox M113), but from Navistar's website they seem like they are basically dump trucks with a different body.

At the end of the day, I think it's about what you DO with the items, not what you COULD do with the items. I agree there's a line. I'm not looking for field arty or tanks in the LE ranks. Armor is just armor, though, and none of these are more dangerous than a bulldozer. Probably less so if the owner knows how to weld (google Killdozer...)

 

[flatlander]

Indy spent $12 MILLION on plans for a justice center that they didn't use. Where's the same passion for THAT huge waste of money that didn't do anything versus the *****ing about an armored vehicle that HAS saved lives? What people are dancing around here is that, it appears, that the equipment to keep our officers and public safe should only be measured by the cost and scary appearance to the public. It appears, that certain members would be fine with doing away with some of the tools that are used if THEY believe them to not be needed from the comfortable confines of their chairs. Before you decide what equipment I need to make sure I go home the same way I got to work, come on out and spend a couple of weeks doing what I do. If you're not willing then go pound sand because your opinion is not based on personal experience. Something I've always had a problem with people doing.

Bob

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But what's a human life really worth? $5 in chemicals? Officers should just do the math. If value victim's life < value of officer's life, clear the scene. No sense taking risks for a comparatively low-value prole.


Unless it's your mother/aunt/sister/daughter, of course.

He's trying to conflate civil suit settlements with the value of human life. Ok, let's play that game. A Bearcat costs, what, about $250k? What's a wrongful death lawsuit usually pay out? I've no idea, but figuring the Internet would never lie to me:

https://www.millerandzois.com/maryland-wrongful-death-settlements.html

• The average fatal accident or malpractice claim for an adult man is $4.1 million($1.4 million median); for an adult woman, it is $3.1 million ($1.4 million median)
• The average verdict for a minor male is$4.3 million ($2 million median); for minor girls the average is $3.4 million($1.5 million median). No, we can't explain the difference.
• The average verdict for deaths over 65 is $1.3 million.
• The average settlement/verdict (combining the two) in Maryland traffic accident death claims is $500,000.

Looks like we got our money's worth out of this one incident, and the rest of the years of use it are free!

Out of curiosity, though, how do you prove something would have happened if something was different? "Prove to me someone would have died had this not happened" is a dishonest ask. You asked for specifics, we gave them based on our experiences. You asked if it's stopped rounds, we told you yes it has. You asked what situations patrol cars or shields wouldn't have been as effective, we gave examples. You can accept them or not.

Given the vast amounts of gov't waste that goes into the pockets of real estate developers and the like, I have a hard time believing this is about good use of tax dollars. Seems like there are a lot bigger fish to fry in that arena. A certain cricket field ate up a lot more cash than armor ever has...

Indy spent $12 MILLION on plans for a justice center that they didn't use. Where's the same passion for THAT huge waste of money that didn't do anything versus the *****ing about an armored vehicle that HAS saved lives?

Heh, Bob typed that as I was typing. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[UTL]

Some of you guys have a lot of time on your hands.

 

[Trigger Time]

Indy spent $12 MILLION on plans for a justice center that they didn't use. Where's the same passion for THAT huge waste of money that didn't do anything versus the *****ing about an armored vehicle that HAS saved lives? What people are dancing around here is that, it appears, that the equipment to keep our officers and public safe should only be measured by the cost and scary appearance to the public. It appears, that certain members would be fine with doing away with some of the tools that are used if THEY believe them to not be needed from the comfortable confines of their chairs. Before you decide what equipment I need to make sure I go home the same way I got to work, come on out and spend a couple of weeks doing what I do. If you're not willing then go pound sand because your opinion is not based on personal experience. Something I've always had a problem with people doing.

Bob

what do you do? I'm game. I've pounded plenty of sand.

its been enjoyable watching Kirk work. I do think the Indy police have a use for certain defensive trucks. What would they do without them? Change their tactics. Don't run into the field of fire.
its not like a bearcat is instantly on scene anyways. They don't patrol in them I don't think?
I think for the most part IMPD is a professional agency. I think they've taken a beating due to ****ty politicians in the last 10 years at least, maybe more. I'm for them having the tools they need when they truly need them. That also means not over escalating a situation that didn't have to be. But if someone is shooting at the police before the bearcat was there then they are gonna keep shooting when it is.
I won't ***** and rail to take away Bearcats until I feel they are misused. Keeping cops safe in a city that has went down the ****ter is a good use.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Other than ramming things, how could it be used offensively? There are also times when ramming things is needed (see the Planned Parenthood post).

The MRAP is built on a IHC (sorry, Navistar) chassis. Other than the armor body, there's actually not much that's not off the shelf from Navistar. MRAPs were after my time (we were still rocking the shoebox M113), but from Navistar's website they seem like they are basically dump trucks with a different body.

At the end of the day, I think it's about what you DO with the items, not what you COULD do with the items. I agree there's a line. I'm not looking for field arty or tanks in the LE ranks. Armor is just armor, though, and none of these are more dangerous than a bulldozer. Probably less so if the owner knows how to weld (google Killdozer...)

The Navistar MRAP stays much closer to its heavy truck roots than some other offerings which have appeared in police inventory which are obviously purpose-built military devices relying only on the frame, suspension, and driveline components of a truck. Even at that, it is much more expensive to maintain than the Ford F550-based Bearcat, just like it is with the analogous parts of a F550 truck and its heavier cargo-carrying berthern. For offensive purposes, the weight difference is very significant.

As for the question of how such equipment COULD be used rather than how it IS used, this is a point where I have a real problem so far as being right and fair all the way around. I wouldn't feel distressed at you, or phylodog, or Denny having an M1 Abrams. On the other hand, there are plenty of police I don't trust with bicycles and sharp sticks. Earlier today, we had an officer make a post or two that would lead me to conclude that I would not want him in possession of any armored vehicle of any type. As a student of history, I am well aware of the ways in which balances of power shift and the consequences when that happens, and that heavily shapes my thinking on this matter.