Happy 100th Anniversary, War on Drugs!

[Destro]

If you really want to base this decision on a financial cost/benefit analysis, the drug war loses on every front.

if all civil institutions were based on a cost/benefit analysis, doubtful we would have the United States of America. But go ahead and keep perpetuating the narrative, you might bait somebody.

 

[Destro]

billions spent on incarceration and bureaucracy.

I'm going to save this one....all I ever hear about is how the criminal justice system exists for revenue generation.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Exactly. I really don't understand the logic of this.

Is it cheap to keep a man in prison? What happens to his family while he's in there? Government assistance, of course. What happens when he gets out? More government assistance. How does a felon get a good enough job to get off of government assistance? The drug war fuels life-long welfare dependence.

If you really want to base this decision on a financial cost/benefit analysis, the drug war loses on every front.

I know I'm a bit of an INGO outcast with my line of thinking but think about it this way: If you're not sticking your hand out for handouts and begging for socializing of consequences, there'd be much less need for the "do-gooders" to think they need to try to protect their tax "investments". If you really want the government out of your bedroom, quit asking them to subsidize its existance.

 

[rambone]

I know I'm a bit of an INGO outcast with my line of thinking but think about it this way: If you're not sticking your hand out for handouts and begging for socializing of consequences, there'd be much less need for the "do-gooders" to think they need to try to protect their tax "investments". If you really want the government out of your bedroom, quit asking them to subsidize its existance.

That is the claim I often see. So, how does the Drug War protect your tax "investments"?

 

[littletommy]

I'm going to save this one....all I ever hear about is how the criminal justice system exists for revenue generation.

I can't speak first hand of the criminal justice system, because I've never been involved in a criminal case other than as a juror, but I can tell you without any hesitation that the "social" side of our system is there for nothing more than to make a few bucks (well, from those of us who can pay our own way, anyway). You know, the state mandated "classes" you are required to take if you are unfortunate enough to go through a divorce and you have kids.....they charge for that. State mandated child support? Yep, the state charges you for that, too. And then, go and ask the hundreds of thousands of people in the state who actually have to deal with child support/child services/whatever they call themselves, and see if they are happy with their experiences with the "system", I'm betting nobody with a brain would say they are pleased with what they get for their money.

With what we see being perpetrated on those of us who are able to pay our way, by just about every portion of government from small towns all the way up to the federal level, I'll continue to be extremely cynical of everything any government entity tries to do.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That is the claim I often see. So, how does the Drug War protect your tax "investments"?

Among others, I'm talking about the collateral damage of say, having to feed, clothe, and house your children while you waste your life away.

 

[Twangbanger]

On the issue of whether it will increase or decrease society's cost, I'm honestly not sure. It is true that lifetime felony raps do move a lot of people out of productive society (admittedly, I don't know how much of a drug charge is required to draw the felony rap). This is an important issue going forward, and I do think we need to at least consider the efficacy of some kind of expungement process for non-violent offenders. Having an ever-increasing societal overhang of nonproductive citizens, who got that way by nonviolent means, cannot end well. (I beg instruction and correction on how nonviolent drug charges become felonies, because I really do not know).

On the other side, you would have to be dreaming to think that legalization/decriminalization will not increase use of recreational drugs. The consequences have to be a deterrent to at least some people. The question is, then what? How can these people pass a drug screening to find a job, anyway? I suppose the answer is, stay clean until hired, then toke up / shoot up / whatever. It's true that failing an employment drugtest one time does not scar them for life - they can always clean back up and become a productive member of society, something that may not be possible if they have the permanent scar of a felony rap. So there's a possible benefit to the legalization approach. However, I'm not sure a society full of on-again / off-again drug users constantly "dodging" employment drug screenings really fits the definition of what you'd call "productive citizens," especially if the number of them increases after drugs are legal.

Is the next step passing a law forbidding employers from administering drug tests as a condition of employment? Because if that's the case, I think legalization proponents should say so, up front. It's a critical component to figuring out the overall picture of how many people will really be "productive" and "employable" under the new regime.

I'm not one one side or another of this, just trying to get details nailed down first.

 

[Birds Away]

The cartels and the police agencies should be having a party. They are ones who have gained the most.

 

[rambone]

Among others, I'm talking about the collateral damage of say, having to feed, clothe, and house your children while you waste your life away.

I'm talking about that same thing. The laws you support create millions of one-parent or zero-parent families.

Taxpayers pay for free food, clothes, and shelter for the prisoners wasting away in a cell.

Then taxpayers pay for free food, clothes, and shelter for the fatherless children.

Everybody loses.

 

[steveh_131]

if all civil institutions were based on a cost/benefit analysis, doubtful we would have the United States of America. But go ahead and keep perpetuating the narrative, you might bait somebody.

I don't understand this comment. Care to elaborate?

Among others, I'm talking about the collateral damage of say, having to feed, clothe, and house your children while you waste your life away.

I want to be clear on this - Are you advocating the criminalization of any behaviors that could lead to financial instability and a corresponding dependence on the welfare state?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I don't understand this comment. Care to elaborate?



I want to be clear on this - Are you advocating the criminalization of any behaviors that could lead to financial instability and a corresponding dependence on the welfare state?

I stand by my statement. If you don't like the .gov in your bedroom (or life), stop inviting them in. Stand up and face the repercussions of your actions, how could anybody justify involving themselves?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm talking about that same thing. The laws you support create millions of one-parent or zero-parent families.

Taxpayers pay for free food, clothes, and shelter for the prisoners wasting away in a cell.

Then taxpayers pay for free food, clothes, and shelter for the fatherless children.

Everybody loses.

I don't know. As you guys like to cite the growing prison populations, there is also a reduction in violent crime. Maybe the two are connected?

If only somebody would tell these people involving yourself in the drug culture might land them in jail.

 

[steveh_131]

I stand by my statement. If you don't like the .gov in your bedroom (or life), stop inviting them in. Stand up and face the repercussions of your actions, how could anybody justify involving themselves?

What other financially irresponsible behaviors would you want to criminalize?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What other financially irresponsible behaviors would you want to criminalize?

I don't have any such desires.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I don't know. As you guys like to cite the growing prison populations, there is also a reduction in violent crime. Maybe the two are connected

So let me ask you this. If a drop in violent crime can be seen as a reason to justify sending non-violent drug offenders to prison............

Couldn't we also justify the availability of abortion (which some have argued), which also can be correlated with the drop in crime?

 

[steveh_131]

I don't have any such desires.

Then I must not be following your logic. This was the original question:

So, how does the Drug War protect your tax "investments"?

And your response:

Among others, I'm talking about the collateral damage of say, having to feed, clothe, and house your children while you waste your life away.

Premise:

• Drug use leads to financial instability
• Financial instability leads to dependence on government assistance
• Dependence on government assistance results in the taking of more of your tax dollars

Conclusion: Drug use should be illegal.

If this is your argument, then why is drug use the only behavior you want prohibit? What about gambling? Alcoholism? Bingo? Pursuing an "Art" major?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Then I must not be following your logic. This was the original question:



And your response:



Premise:

• Drug use leads to financial instability
• Financial instability leads to dependence on government assistance
• Dependence on government assistance results in the taking of more of your tax dollars

Conclusion: Drug use should be illegal.

If this is your argument, then why is drug use the only behavior you want prohibit? What about gambling? Alcoholism? Bingo? Pursuing an "Art" major?

Other such behaviors are not permitted. For example: I can't drink and drive.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

So let me ask you this. If a drop in violent crime can be seen as a reason to justify sending non-violent drug offenders to prison............

Couldn't we also justify the availability of abortion (which some have argued), which also can be correlated with the drop in crime?

I'll not answer this as I would surely transgress several on INGO's cardinal sins.

 

[steveh_131]

Other such behaviors are not permitted. For example: I can't drink and drive.

This is not an answer to my question, but I think you know that.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'll not answer this as I would surely transgress several on INGO's cardinal sins.

Fair enough. I'd be bummed if I ever saw a "Should I ban GFGT" tread.