GUN BUYBACK!!!

[churchmouse]

Disagree with you on this one CM, this was all about intimidation, period. JD was stealing some of their thunder and they didn't like it. IF he was doing nothing illegal, impeding traffic, dealing stolen guns, spitting on the sidewalk, whatever then there was no need for action after the initial detective presumably verified his license.

He didn't respect their authoritah so they slapped his wrist. I hope he slaps back, hard! Happens fairly regularly with the respect mah authoritah crowd.

Not bashing, I know several good cops, unfortunately they rarely make the news.

That was my point. You nailed it. Do not go PI$$ING with the Po-Po. It was their show and a set up on top of that. So in reality, you agree with me.
Youth will always try and make their mark. Is he a hero for the cause or did he stir the POOP pile and slow our role. Hard to say.
I too hope he puts the legality of this into full swing. It was a show of force for those in line and it sucks.
That is why I avoid these things. I do not play well with idiots.

 

[churchmouse]

Whether or not you AGREE with what he did, he was perfectly within his rights to do it. Wait I'll say he was OBLIGATED to do it. The amount of "don't mess with us, we're the cops" crap that goes on these days is ridiculous. (Remind anyone of "powder raids"?)

Things need to be done. Waves need to be made. We need to know what kind of men we are.
+1000 for the young man who did this.

Oh and to the nay sayers... to

Again, JMHO. I say he had the right but the obligation....really. Where were you?? Not a slam by any means. I understand the emotions involved in this whole thing as I do a lot of trading, selling and buying in our classifieds and feel it is our right to do so. It makes me nervous every time because of the freelancing of the law by some LEO out there. Not all but some.
I am not a nay sayer I just avoid Pi$$ing with LEO on his turf. Been cuffed and do not want to experience that ever again. Pick your battles wisely. This could have taken a different turn. Glad he is free and well.

 

[long coat]

He was cited on a ordinance violation, contrary to your statement.

What he was cited for, he was not doing. He didn't break any law.

 

[CoachStall]

Two questions:

1) When buying a firearm in a private sale, what resource do we have to ensure the firearm isn't stolen? Do you purchase and then check, or get the serial number upfront and check? Are either of these realistic/possible?

2) what is the legality of a businiess hiring some one to dress up and stand next to the road with a sign offering to "buy your gold" or whatever service they offer?

 

[KG1]

That was my point. You nailed it. Do not go PI$$ING with the Po-Po. It was their show and a set up on top of that. So in reality, you agree with me.
Youth will always try and make their mark. Is he a hero for the cause or did he stir the POOP pile and slow our role. Hard to say.
I too hope he puts the legality of this into full swing. It was a show of force for those in line and it sucks.
That is why I avoid these things. I do not play well with idiots.

Again, JMHO. I say he had the right but the obligation....really. Where were you?? Not a slam by any means. I understand the emotions involved in this whole thing as I do a lot of trading, selling and buying in our classifieds and feel it is our right to do so. It makes me nervous every time because of the freelancing of the law by some LEO out there. Not all but some.
I am not a nay sayer I just avoid Pi$$ing with LEO on his turf. Been cuffed and do not want to experience that ever again. Pick your battles wisely. This could have taken a different turn. Glad he is free and well.

You keep saying things to make it out like the guy's sole purpose was to go down there and have a confrontation with the police.

I don't see it the same way. I believe what he say's his stated intentions were and that was to get a really good deal on a few firearms and he set about to do it on the up and up in a legal manner.

It's not like he was trying to do a shady arms deal in a back alley somewhere.

He was conducting a legal transaction out in the open, fully aware that there were going to be LE there. I don't question his motives. It is what it is.

 

[churchmouse]

I didn't think of churchmouse as your name but as a handle as you referred to it, and I didn't think changing it was pointing to something I thought you had as a personality trait. That's why I added the phrase, "at least in this one instance". The moderator and you both seemed to have left that sentence out so I know my post is not being understood the way I intended it. Some folks use their name as handles and I wouldn't poke fun at a person's name so I sincerely apologize for calling you a "name" but it was only once not "names". I also regret the opening phrase because I intended it to be taken more humorously than it was. I was actually hoping to see a response to the latter half of the post but the first line seems to have been taken in a much more negative light than I intended it.

I realize I don't know you, never said I did, and that cuts both ways, and I wasn't asking if you cared. Nor would I think your handle indicates anything about you. What elicited my response was solely your posts in THIS thread. I have read several of your other posts and agreed with many of your viewpoints. I even agreed with you on the fact that "something would happen". However, I disagree with your conclusions. Until we hear more information and the resolution of the matter, we can't say it was "good" or "bad". It was that judgement that I think is premature. You said earlier you pick your battles and this wasn't one of them, fine I agree with that too, but because it wasn't yours doesn't necessarily mean that it was a "bad" one for someone else. I think it would have been much better if there could have been an organized "alternative" buyback station, but if an individual chooses to exercise their rights then its ok. I couldn't help but thinking that from the american revolution to tiananmen square, it is individuals making a stand against tyranny that makes differences. Many of them don't become famous but they provide the spark for famous changes.

For example, I usually CC instead of OC. One reason is that I don't want the hassle if approached by an LEO while CCing. That said, I am not going to tell someone else not to exercise their OC rights because I think its a bad idea personally. I believe them to be intelligent enough to have thoughtfully chosen to OC and to have accepted any consequences that could arise as a result. I apply the same reasoning here. If an individual chooses to provide an alternative across the street within his rights, I would believe this person to have already considered possible outcomes and not say that the given outcome was good or bad until avenues of recourse had been pursued.





For him, if he chose his actions and considered the alternatives, it may have been the best idea. Personally, once again, I think there would have been strength in numbers as a "best idea", but I don't think it was a "bad idea" which has been your judgement on the matter.




Nope, I was at work. If there would have been an organized event by INGO members and I would have been off, I would have been there.
I never claimed to be a leader and like you I try to choose my battles wisely. I am more sheepish, but I do admire those who choose to do what I probably would not do but wish I was brave enough to do and when I read your posts they seemed to be putting down a behavior that I admire. Thats why I responded with the sheeply comment. I felt you were saying in multiple posts that we should just stand behind the line in this instance.



This I agree with, but there usually comes a point where one does not back down. That point happens to be different for each individual, and perhaps the young man in question decided that this was a chance he was willing to take and a stand for which he was willing to accept the consequences.

Again you are right we don't know each other, so when/if I respond to you, remember that I am responding to what you POST, and not making any claim whatsoever that I KNOW you or anyone else whose posts to which I respond. If I knew you perhaps I would understand your POSTS in a different light. If you want to get to know each other, we could meet somewhere for a cup of coffee or something. Other than that I don't see how I will ever KNOW you or anyone else on here for that matter.

Churchmouse is my handle. It has been since the Sunday morning TV show with the little hand puppet called Timothy church mouse. My name (Given) is Timothy. That was in the late 50's early 60's so I guess you could say it is an AKA I have had for near 50 years. It has been on the side of all my race cars and helmets. It is on my tool box as well.
As to the comment, well, emotions tend to run high when folks are discussing such things. Did I miss-understand the name reference, maybe. I take the handle seriously. Would I sit down with you and share a cup...you bet I would. We are all in the same boat as gun owners. It is my hobby, my passion and is becoming a way of life for me and my family.

As to standing ones ground, I have done this all my life and it has cost me dearly in some situations. I respect this young mans courage but I question the intelligence of it. This could have been far worse for him. I was merely trying to convey that.
His actions did set this thread in motion and we have all been able to air our views and opinions on the outcome. We are all seeing this through our own eyes and the things we see are a total of our life's experiences and perspectives.
Pick your battles, be aware of the outcome if possible and be free to fight another day.
I apologize for my response if it was out of line. As stated, I take the handle seriously.

Just so you know....

 

[churchmouse]

You keep saying things to make it out like the guy's sole purpose was to go down there and have a confrontation with the police.

I don't see it the same way. I believe what he say's his stated intentions were and that was to get a really good deal on a few firearms and he set about to do it on the up and up in a legal manner.

It's not like he was trying to do a shady arms deal in a back alley somewhere.

He was conducting a legal transaction out in the open, fully aware that there were going to be LE there. I don't question his motives. It is what it is.

The confrontation was inevitable by his actions. I do not think he wanted this but what other outcome was possible. This is what I am trying to convey. LEO was not going to allow this and it ended their way as usual.
Again I am relieved he is well, free and able to peruse some legal re-course.

 

[dubsac]

It appears at least a few of you are starting to understand why what the kid did was wrong. For the rest of you.....when we talk about those who should not have guns, we're talking about you. Going to this event to purposely cause a confrontation with the police, which is exactly what the kid did, is immature and suggestive of an intellect we don't want in possession of a firearm. If you think what he did was proper, you are just as much a part of the problem as is he.

Also in this thread we see several examples of those who want to play former policeman, etc. It's easy to be who you want to be in the Internet. However, after a while, your true identity comes through in the posts you make. You're not fooling anyone......

It appears by your POSTS, your true identity of belittling individuals surfaces.

How would you have handled this one, Jake?

You continually refer to yourself in the collective, but it is painfully obvious that you stand in the minority. You continually refer to him as a kid to continue to insult him because he is younger than you. You continue to insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you should not own a gun.

Bravo, bravo very well put.

 

[mbills2223]

The confrontation was inevitable by his actions. I do not think he wanted this but what other outcome was possible. This is what I am trying to convey. LEO was not going to allow this and it ended their way as usual.
Again I am relieved he is well, free and able to peruse some legal re-course.

But are you also saying that we should not exercise our rights just because we know they are going to be violated? I'm not insinuating that you are, but I am curious.

 

[KG1]

The confrontation was inevitable by his actions. I do not think he wanted this but what other outcome was possible. This is what I am trying to convey. LEO was not going to allow this and it ended their way as usual.
Again I am relieved he is well, free and able to peruse some legal re-course.

Fair enough. I just took issue with some of the the statements that you made as to what his motive might have been. A simple disagreement of opinion.

 

[churchmouse]

But are you also saying that we should not exercise our rights just because we know they are going to be violated? I'm not insinuating that you are, but I am curious.

Again...picking you battles. How are you set up to withstand the consequences of the battle you choose to become involved in.
Of course, stand your ground if put into a situation. Defend your rights.
If you are going full steam into a scenario such as our young hero then be fully aware of what may befall you. This is just my humble opinion. At 62 yrs. old I do not put myself on the firing line anymore. I respect those who do if a difference can be made.
My question to you...how do we as a group effect a change in these policy's
and get the LEO to act in a more civilized manner. Again, not all of them are wrong in their actions and i do not want to start a bashing action.

 

[mbills2223]

Again...picking you battles. How are you set up to withstand the consequences of the battle you choose to become involved in.
Of course, stand your ground if put into a situation. Defend your rights.
If you are going full steam into a scenario such as our young hero then be fully aware of what may befall you. This is just my humble opinion. At 62 yrs. old I do not put myself on the firing line anymore. I respect those who do if a difference can be made.
My question to you...how do we as a group effect a change in these policy's
and get the LEO to act in a more civilized manner. Again, not all of them are wrong in their actions and i do not want to start a bashing action.

Thanks for clearing that up. As to your question about policy, I truly believe that things like this have to happen, but they have to happen more often. We have to work through the court system to make sure that the legal precedents affirm, rather than contradict, our Constitutional rights. We (everyone, not just gun owners) have to exercise our rights even when we know it may be frowned upon by some in authority.

Not pretending that I have all the answers, heck if I did I probably wouldn't be sharing them here but that's my two cents.

Edit: I especially liked your statement about being equipped to deal with the situation. It's an interesting, and unfortunate, truth that one must be able to afford to maintain their liberty in some situations.

 

[churchmouse]

Fair enough. I just took issue with some of the the statements that you made as to what his motive might have been. A simple disagreement of opinion.

As always, men can and do disagree. No harm, no foul.
Some folks just can not pass up an opportunity to make a killer deal. I saw that as his motive but also saw this as the outcome of this motive as well.
His statement as to saving WWII pieces and such seemed to fade away at the first opportunity to snatch up a couple of S$W snubby's which were a great deal.
Was his motive re-sale?? no big deal but that would negate his hero status a bit.

 

[KG1]

Again...picking you battles. How are you set up to withstand the consequences of the battle you choose to become involved in.
Of course, stand your ground if put into a situation. Defend your rights.
If you are going full steam into a scenario such as our young hero then be fully aware of what may befall you. This is just my humble opinion. At 62 yrs. old I do not put myself on the firing line anymore. I respect those who do if a difference can be made.
My question to you...how do we as a group effect a change in these policy's
and get the LEO to act in a more civilized manner. Again, not all of them are wrong in their actions and i do not want to start a bashing action.

There you go again. Referring to doing "battle" or labeling this guy as a "young hero" as if to insinuate he was there strictly to have a confrontation with the police. Again, I respectfully disagree.

 

[Ted]

I don't know what your source of legal information is, but it's not the same one used by this country's legal profession or law enforcement establishment.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not entitled to your own facts.

If you truly believe that your former occupation as a police officer places you in a superior position of knowledge, then by all mean, go ahead and continue believing so.

A large part of my own source of legal information came from any number of practicing criminal attorneys and tenured professors similarly qualified at regionally accredited institutions. Though it doesn't require a JD to read and apply the elements of a crime, as you seem to have difficulty in doing.

The problem with Terry V. Ohio is that it lets officers who are ignorant of the law get away with search and seizures in almost any situation.........

^ This. And because there isn't a higher standard required of the qualifications of police officers, there isn't a higher standard required in the enforcement of the law.

 

[theweakerbrother]

The confrontation was inevitable by his actions. I do not think he wanted this but what other outcome was possible. This is what I am trying to convey. LEO was not going to allow this and it ended their way as usual.
Again I am relieved he is well, free and able to peruse some legal re-course.

I remember the good ole says when men were responsible for their own actions and things weren't always 'inevitable' by another man's actions. You disagree with what the young man did but don't break logic to do so. Your bias is showing.

PS Everyone is biased. So I guess that's okay.

 

[Dirtebiker]

I don't know what your source of legal information is, but it's not the same one used by this country's legal profession or law enforcement establishment.

But what do you know, since Jake seems to know more than any of us and he knows that you have never been in law enforcement. (would be in purple, if I knew how!)

 

[churchmouse]

I remember the good ole says when men were responsible for their own actions and things weren't always 'inevitable' by another man's actions. You disagree with what the young man did but don't break logic to do so. Your bias is showing.

PS Everyone is biased. So I guess that's okay.

Agreed. I respect the enthusiasm but question the motives involved...if that is biased, well, I guess I am.
Yes, I remember those days and maybe that is where my slightly biased outlook comes from. You break it you fix it and so on.

After some reflection I find that I disagree with his in your face tactics. he could have accomplished his goals by being a bit more discreet. Again, our young hero was out to make a point. His decision. It has been fodder for good debate.

I have kids around his age. I do understand.

 

[Ted]

I remember Timothy Churchmouse too.....

Aired on Channel 13.

 

[churchmouse]

There you go again. Referring to doing "battle" or labeling this guy as a "young hero" as if to insinuate he was there strictly to have a confrontation with the police. Again, I respectfully disagree.

Accepted. I do see his actions as an in your face approach to a situation that could have been accomplished with less bravado and in your face tactics. But that is only my opinion and if involved, I would have been more discreet. In this situation, what other result could be expected from the sign and his presentation.
My post was not totally in reference to this young man and the hero reference is loose at best.
The question was put to me and I answered. Please take my response as such.

Edit...I was responding to Mbills2223