GPS Tracking Beacon placed on 'suspect' vehicle without warrant

[E5RANGER375]

^^^Reading that post was like trying to watch Sopranos on network TV.

you thought it was morse code at first glance didnt you?

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I don't care what job we have, all of us have rules to follow! These rules may come from the Federal Government, the State Government, local ordinances, Union contracts, skilled labor standards... whatever.

Agents of the government are limited by the rules of the Constitution. There are not a heck of a lot of these. The Constitution isn't that thick of a read.

One of the basic rules is, "...people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This isn't that bloody difficult to follow!

By overstepping this "rule" the officers involved may(?) indeed reap a short term reward of putting a bad guy in prison. However, the longterm damage they have done to civil liberties is far worse. By supporting this idea they erode what will be tolerable to future generations who may have little concept of what true freedom really is...

The sad reality is that those of us reading this may feel that we "know" what freedom is, yet I wonder if our great great grandparents would cry at our misconception.

Regards,

Doug

 

[88GT]

I don't like the idea of warrantless GPS tracking, but that being said, "proof" has never been the standard, with or without a warrant. The standard is "probable cause," per the constitution.

Probable cause may be the standard, but there is absolutely no check on the validity of the probable cause information.

Example: "your honor, the probable cause was the smell of alcohol on his breath and an open container on the floor of the front passenger seat." (It's just an example, don't get hung up on the details and straw man the main point, please.)

This may meet the standard for acceptable probable cause to issue a warrant, but it completely disregards the factual nature of the claim. There is no burden of proof on the LEO claiming probable cause to show that the claim is BOTH factual AND meets the standard of probable cause. It is enough that he claims he smelled alcohol and saw the open container. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant....for the purposes of obtaining the warrant/conducting the search/etc. THough it may later affect the ability to prosecute the case, by then the violation has already occurred and a man's rights have been trampled.

Here's what I don't get: Why not just get a warrant? Is it that hard these days? From what I understand, it's pretty much of a rubber stamp - please correct me if I'm wrong LEOs, that's just the impression I get. Why not just clear this up with policy? Have a good reason to do it, get a warrant, no controversy.

Yeah, or they could just put in the man hours and do it the old-fashioned way too. The GPS is easier on the budget and possibly less susceptible to corruptive influences, but there's no real need to get the warrant because none of the information obtained is protected, only the manner in which is was obtained.

I don't really care either way, but it's not as if not using GPS is going to result in a complete lack of evidence for conviction. It is my opinion that much of the warrantless use of the GPS is justified in this manner.

 

[hornadylnl]

If I found one on my car, I'd probably take it off and put it on a judges car or a pizza delivery car. Let them have fun tracking that.

 

[Hoosier9]

Probable cause may be the standard, but there is absolutely no check on the validity of the probable cause information.

Example: "your honor, the probable cause was the smell of alcohol on his breath and an open container on the floor of the front passenger seat." (It's just an example, don't get hung up on the details and straw man the main point, please.)

This may meet the standard for acceptable probable cause to issue a warrant, but it completely disregards the factual nature of the claim. There is no burden of proof on the LEO claiming probable cause to show that the claim is BOTH factual AND meets the standard of probable cause. It is enough that he claims he smelled alcohol and saw the open container. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant....for the purposes of obtaining the warrant/conducting the search/etc. THough it may later affect the ability to prosecute the case, by then the violation has already occurred and a man's rights have been trampled.

The entire criminal justice system is based on trust in the executive branch to properly enforce the laws, and the judicial branch to properly interpret and apply the law. It is not possible for every enforcement action to be immediately reviewed by the judiciary. You can't have a judge riding around with every police officer to check the validity of every enforcement action, and even if you could, it's not exactly uncommon to see a judge abusing his authority. The system is inherently flawed, and always will be, because it involves humans.

What we've got is probably about the best that it can get, with regards to being fair to the accused while still serving the interests of justice and public safety. The key is to deal harshly with police or judicial abuses when they come to light.


Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams

 

[hornadylnl]

The entire criminal justice system is based on trust in the executive branch to properly enforce the laws, and the judicial branch to properly interpret and apply the law. It is not possible for every enforcement action to be immediately reviewed by the judiciary. You can't have a judge riding around with every police officer to check the validity of every enforcement action, and even if you could, it's not exactly uncommon to see a judge abusing his authority. The system is inherently flawed, and always will be, because it involves humans.

What we've got is probably about the best that it can get, with regards to being fair to the accused while still serving the interests of justice and public safety. The key is to deal harshly with police or judicial abuses when they come to light.


Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams

There is no semblance of that happening now.

 

[Love the 1911]

May I ask why? 15 year olds know right from wrong.

More than likely I am just calling the popo if someone is breaking in to my car, but I certainly don't feel bad when I read stories of thieves getting shot and killed.

Just said 15 because they have been caught on a few of the car break-ins that we've been fortunate enough to catch over the last year. We all know right from wrong so should we get shot when we lie? I said I hate thieves as much as anyone but we need to make sure our reactions fit the crime. If someone wants my stuff, make sure I'm not at home and you can come in and take it. If I'm at home, I have a duty to protect myself and my family.

I also don't feel bad when I hear about thieves being shot and killed but I'd rather not have to explain myself to LE, family, judge, and jury for being the one to get rid of a thief.

 

[Dave Doehrman]

Is it illegal for them to install the device or does the law just bar them from using the info obtained in a trial?

I don’t know if this is old news for some, but some of you may not be aware that the government is turning cell phones into listening devices. They can re-program your phone over the air and turn it into a bug. About the only way you can be sure your phone is not transmitting is to remove the battery. They can and have done this with phones that look like they are turned off, but are actually transmitting

The new smart phone technology also enables them to use the internal GPS feature of your phone to track your location to within 9 feet. They can track you and map your location wherever there is cell phone coverage.

If you have doubts, see the attached article. This took place in 2003 and 2004 and technology has leaped ahead since then.

FBI taps cell phone mic as eavesdropping tool - CNET News

 

[sparky241]

Not only have many courts OK'ed this, but they have also upheld rulings that the device cannot be legally removed, disabled, or destroyed by the owner of the car. Evidently, the device still is .gov property, even though it is on your car.

Something like that shows up on my car, I'll slap some postage on it and send it to Antarctica.

i would love to find one of these and put it on a cop car or wild animal

 

[Benny]

Just said 15 because they have been caught on a few of the car break-ins that we've been fortunate enough to catch over the last year. We all know right from wrong so should we get shot when we lie? I said I hate thieves as much as anyone but we need to make sure our reactions fit the crime. If someone wants my stuff, make sure I'm not at home and you can come in and take it. If I'm at home, I have a duty to protect myself and my family.

I also don't feel bad when I hear about thieves being shot and killed but I'd rather not have to explain myself to LE, family, judge, and jury for being the one to get rid of a thief.

It sounds like INGunGuy would have no such trouble.



If someone was trying to break into my car, I wouldn't have an issue with shooting them, because they deserve it, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to answer hours of questions, have to hire a lawyer and go to trial and have my gun confiscated just because some piece of **** saw something in my car he liked.

I'd rather just make a phone call and let the police handle it.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Is it illegal for them to install the device or does the law just bar them from using the info obtained in a trial? Trying to keep up with this.

It's also a common practice among private investigators.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Then you are in trouble for battery and/or assualt. The mere fact that somone (say me) goes up to your car and touches it or installes something on it is not (at that moment in time) a danger/threat to your life. So you can't use force on the person since no crime (to cause death) is occuring.

Try putting one on the governor’s car or a police squad car some time.

I'd just toss it up on trailor at the next truck stop I went by or stick it to a garbage truck when I'm dropping off the trash at the land fill.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I don’t know if this is old news for some, but some of you may not be aware that the government is turning cell phones into listening devices. They can re-program your phone over the air and turn it into a bug. About the only way you can be sure your phone is not transmitting is to remove the battery. They can and have done this with phones that look like they are turned off, but are actually transmitting

The new smart phone technology also enables them to use the internal GPS feature of your phone to track your location to within 9 feet. They can track you and map your location wherever there is cell phone coverage.

If you have doubts, see the attached article. This took place in 2003 and 2004 and technology has leaped ahead since then.

FBI taps cell phone mic as eavesdropping tool - CNET News

yeah, I tried to warn people here about that before, but some said my tin foil hat was too tight. some people somehow cant fathom the fact that their own govt is in the business to screw them. This is America!!! they say " its could NEVER happen here" LMFAO

 

[Jack Ryan]

I will cut the things into 50 pieces and mail it to 50 different countries in the world.

Touch my car without a warrant and I catch you, you will probably get your azz shot.

INGunGuy

LOLOLOLOL, and I got a "lecture" on the legality of dealing with armed smart alec snots deliberately tresspassing on posted private property.

That's hilarious, look, I'm not touching you. Oh look now, I'm not touching your car. LOL, take chill pill.

 

[Hoosier9]

There is no semblance of that happening now.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Either way, I'm sure that abuse of power and corruption is not a recent innovation. We do have better media nowadays, however.

 

[dross]

Try putting one on the governor’s car or a police squad car some time.

.

You make a good point. Why wouldn't you be able to do that? If the cops can do it without a warrant, isn't that the saying there's no violation of rights and therefore why couldn't a citizen do it?

 

[88GT]

The entire criminal justice system is based on trust in the executive branch to properly enforce the laws, and the judicial branch to properly interpret and apply the law. It is not possible for every enforcement action to be immediately reviewed by the judiciary. You can't have a judge riding around with every police officer to check the validity of every enforcement action, and even if you could, it's not exactly uncommon to see a judge abusing his authority. The system is inherently flawed, and always will be, because it involves humans.

What we've got is probably about the best that it can get, with regards to being fair to the accused while still serving the interests of justice and public safety. The key is to deal harshly with police or judicial abuses when they come to light.

I can handle inherently flawed. What I can't handle is a system that encourages and fosters abuse and refuses to institute the proper checks on itself as well as sufficient oversight to see that the limitations under which it is supposed to operate are working properly.

yeah, I tried to warn people here about that before, but some said my tin foil hat was too tight. some people somehow cant fathom the fact that their own govt is in the business to screw them. This is America!!! they say " its could NEVER happen here" LMFAO

Well, your tinfoil is on tight. But we wouldn't want it blowing away in a good stiff radiation breeze either.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I can handle inherently flawed. What I can't handle is a system that encourages and fosters abuse and refuses to institute the proper checks on itself as well as sufficient oversight to see that the limitations under which it is supposed to operate are working properly.



Well, your tinfoil is on tight. But we wouldn't want it blowing away in a good stiff radiation breeze either.

i still say the radiation is gonna be coming from japan.

 

[Destro]

hopefully they have enough evedence to put him away, even if the GPS gets overturned

 

[kevinj110]

hopefully they have enough evedence to put him away, even if the GPS gets overturned

Dredd is that you?