Goats, sheep, llamas, alpacas. School me

[IndyDave1776]

To do the most accurate fecal test, you should also get a good centrifuge and a hydrometer. We charge a lot more than that for a fecal at my office, but we identify parasites more than most practices do. Review technique for centrifugation/floatation with zinc sulfate. But the other issue is how you use your results. Parasites in food animal medicine are often just looked at as a treatment problem, when they are really best handled by management. Holistic rotational grazing can help control the problem. Also use your identification to figure out how and when to treat and who is breaking with parasites.

Unfortunately, any evidence of herbal remedies is pretty much anecdotal.

I had my concerns about the quality of results. As it is today, I have a microscope, the centrifuge is in shipment, some supplies are on the way and some I haven't had a chance to sort out and order yet, and I intend to use a sugar/water solution with a specific gravity of 1.27 which will float anything when centrifuged.

I settled out on a Clay Adams 6 slot centrifuge given that it spins at approximately the optimal speed for the application and has none of the features which break frequently on centrifuges.

I haven't yet started the search for a hydrometer, and instruction on this would be appreciated.

One of the points I haven't yet sorted out is transferring the top layer of materials to the cover slip to take to the microscope, but I haven't really got around to looking too hard yet, either. I agree completely regarding rotation. As for herbal remedies, I have enough anecdotal evidence in direct and indirect personal experience that I am satisfied that they work admirably, and that the problem stems from the politics of a century ago, specifically that those on the other side won the battle for official imprimatur. This doesn't mean that I am swearing off more conventional means of addressing the problems, just that I see this as the first stop.

Let me emphasize that any advice is very welcome and very much appreciated!

 

[dusty88]

I had my concerns about the quality of results. As it is today, I have a microscope, the centrifuge is in shipment, some supplies are on the way and some I haven't had a chance to sort out and order yet, and I intend to use a sugar/water solution with a specific gravity of 1.27 which will float anything when centrifuged.

I settled out on a Clay Adams 6 slot centrifuge given that it spins at approximately the optimal speed for the application and has none of the features which break frequently on centrifuges.

I haven't yet started the search for a hydrometer, and instruction on this would be appreciated.

One of the points I haven't yet sorted out is transferring the top layer of materials to the cover slip to take to the microscope, but I haven't really got around to looking too hard yet, either. I agree completely regarding rotation. As for herbal remedies, I have enough anecdotal evidence in direct and indirect personal experience that I am satisfied that they work admirably, and that the problem stems from the politics of a century ago, specifically that those on the other side won the battle for official imprimatur. This doesn't mean that I am swearing off more conventional means of addressing the problems, just that I see this as the first stop.

Let me emphasize that any advice is very welcome and very much appreciated!

Caveat: I reviewed all of the options several years ago and made my decisions, so my memory may not be perfect on all of this. I do get better results than even our reference laboratory, having done some side-by-side tests.

The Sheather's sugar solution is better for finding Cestodes (tapeworms) but it will destroy Giardia. And you can identify Cestodes grossly or by smashing the proglottids in saline. Thus overall, we decided on ZnSO4. As for finding nematodes, either will work. But the sugar solution will also float a lot more debris. That is an even bigger problem for you if you aren't skilled at identifying parasites.

That's the other issue. If you haven't studied and practiced, you may spend quite a bit of time mis-identifying grain pollens, grain mites, fat globules, and even air bubbles. You even get irrelevent parasites (ie an animal eats mouse dung and passes a mouse parasite but you think your animal actually has a parasite). Of course, if you truly only have 1 parasite type you can get skilled at that pretty quickly.

You can buy hydrometers at scientific supply companies.

I'm not sure what you mean by transferring. We spin the tube in the centrifuge, then finish filling it with the floatation solution and float it for 10 minutes with a cover slip on it. Then we put the cover slip on a slide to read it.

As far as using anecdoctal information, that's part of the reason I'm starting to do consultations in the permaculture/sustainable agriculture industry. If you don't know the parasite life cycle, survival methods, etc, it's common to misinterpret what is going on in your parasite control.

 

[wagyu52]

Op, It is important to note that if you are considering livestock as a learning experience you consider what your end game is. It's important to teach the responsability of caring for animals but it is equally important to teach what they are actually for. Goat is the most consumed red meat on the planet. I can tell you as a farm kid, farm parent and now Grandparent it is a hard lesson but a very important one, no different than hunting just more personable.
Have you thought about more conventional livestock? Pasture raised pork is excellent and can be done in the summer with minimal effort. Low Line Angus, miniature Herfords, miniature belted Galloway are all breeds of small cattle 40-50" high and around 5-600 lbs. Not much larger than a pony and can be raised for beef and/or milk.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Something else to consider:

With livestock, you'd better have good friends/family nearby and/or good neighbors to take care of them of/when you want to go out of town.

Probably the lowest impact animal of the one's you're considering would be the alpaca. They're relatively small for their size (if that makes any sense...), lightweight, and don't have hard hooves that compact the soil. They're light grazers, so they won't reduce their pen to dust/mud. Small-ish stomachs mean they really don't eat much. I'd bet they'd eat less than a donkey of the same height.

But they, too, need their own maintenance. They do need to have foot care - though definitely not as intense as the equines. They'll also need regular maintenance on their coat. Whether or not you collect and attempt to sell the wool is a whole other story. They also seem to have a gentler disposition than their larger llama cousins. Llamas are jerks.

As said above: If goats can get out, they will get out. They'll also chew on anything they can get their mouths on. So a decently competent fence to start out will may not be all that competent after a few weeks / months.

Have fun selecting a critter!

 

[Dead Duck]

They all taste the same.
Goats are a little tougher than most, I always boil them first to be tender then add it to your recipe.

 

[Birds Away]

Don't give up on women yet. I am told there is someone for everyone.

 

[HamsterStyle]

Ok, here goes.

First, we have a pen/enclosure already in place. It is approximately 30'x30'. It has previously housed a goat with no issues of escaping. It is sturdy enough for a pair of goats. That I am not worried about. We have 1.5 acre of yard, not pasture. Our other 3 acres are woods. So, a full time grazing animal such as a cow or pasture pig are out (at least for now).

With the chickens, I am under the impression that they end up not being as low maintenance as led on. As far as all barnyard animals are concerned, yeah, but as pet for first priority, they are more than we care to dive into at this time.

As for the goats, first priority is being a pet for right now. Endgame- if the family feels up to it after having a couple pet goats for some time, I would look into a doe to purchase for milk purpose and possibly a breeding pair.

First requirement is a pet that can teach the kids some responsibility and how things work.

I have no problem putting forth the effort to maintain a pet. I don't want to dive in headfirst and go for everything from the get go and be in over my head.

 

[dusty88]

Ok, here goes.

First, we have a pen/enclosure already in place. It is approximately 30'x30'. It has previously housed a goat with no issues of escaping. It is sturdy enough for a pair of goats. That I am not worried about. We have 1.5 acre of yard, not pasture. Our other 3 acres are woods. So, a full time grazing animal such as a cow or pasture pig are out (at least for now).

With the chickens, I am under the impression that they end up not being as low maintenance as led on. As far as all barnyard animals are concerned, yeah, but as pet for first priority, they are more than we care to dive into at this time.

As for the goats, first priority is being a pet for right now. Endgame- if the family feels up to it after having a couple pet goats for some time, I would look into a doe to purchase for milk purpose and possibly a breeding pair.

First requirement is a pet that can teach the kids some responsibility and how things work.

I have no problem putting forth the effort to maintain a pet. I don't want to dive in headfirst and go for everything from the get go and be in over my head.

Good choice to go in slowly. Then you can also see if your kids stay involved. And you don't have to deal with having a billy goat to breed (more smelly, more likely to break out of fence, more likely to be tempermental). You can own the females and find a local goat owner to breed them for you. Or rent-a-billy.

 

[HamsterStyle]

That is the soft goal at this point.

 

[wagyu52]

Don't know much about goats but 30'x30' Doesn't seem big enough to me for 2 goats as a pasture, I would think it will be a dirt lot 90% of the time. If over grazed goats, sheep and horses can killing grass, they nibble it right down to the root. Not trying to sway you, just FYI.

Someone has given you really bad advice on Chickens. A 30'x30' would be ideal for a small flock of a dozen or two. They are very low matinance and are excellent at scavenging, the old saying a goat will eat anything is false a chicken will eat anything. Plus you get a renewable product from them that is easiy to use, store or trade.

We have a 5AC cattle lot with a pole barn for hay storage, about 4 yrs ago we started with 15 chickens and are down to 8. They just run loose and roost 15' in the air on barn rafters in the hay barn at night. I do not feed or water them, they drink from cattle fountains and eat anything they find. My wife has them trained to come when she calls with a treat, hotdogs. (I know it's sick but they will eat anything including each other) Eggs are like a scavenger hunt, but they are creatures of habit and usually leave them in the same spots.

I'm not saying you should raise chickens like we do but it shows you just how low matinance they can be. They are hands down the best farm type animal to have, they can be very friendly, completely trainable, reasonably intelligent and are literally garbage disposals.

 

[miguel]

I once heard a podcast on goats with some good advice "You are ready to get a goat when you are ready to see it standing on your neighbor's car"

Damn. I wish I knew that before my douche bag neighbor moved out. I'd have paid plenty to see a goat standing tall on his roof, hopefully whizzing in the moon roof.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Caveat: I reviewed all of the options several years ago and made my decisions, so my memory may not be perfect on all of this. I do get better results than even our reference laboratory, having done some side-by-side tests.

The Sheather's sugar solution is better for finding Cestodes (tapeworms) but it will destroy Giardia. And you can identify Cestodes grossly or by smashing the proglottids in saline. Thus overall, we decided on ZnSO4. As for finding nematodes, either will work. But the sugar solution will also float a lot more debris. That is an even bigger problem for you if you aren't skilled at identifying parasites.

That's the other issue. If you haven't studied and practiced, you may spend quite a bit of time mis-identifying grain pollens, grain mites, fat globules, and even air bubbles. You even get irrelevent parasites (ie an animal eats mouse dung and passes a mouse parasite but you think your animal actually has a parasite). Of course, if you truly only have 1 parasite type you can get skilled at that pretty quickly.

You can buy hydrometers at scientific supply companies.

I'm not sure what you mean by transferring. We spin the tube in the centrifuge, then finish filling it with the floatation solution and float it for 10 minutes with a cover slip on it. Then we put the cover slip on a slide to read it.

As far as using anecdoctal information, that's part of the reason I'm starting to do consultations in the permaculture/sustainable agriculture industry. If you don't know the parasite life cycle, survival methods, etc, it's common to misinterpret what is going on in your parasite control.

Thanks for all the good information. Being as I am, this would lead me to double-test using both Sheather's and ZnSO4. By far, my biggest worry is the barber pole worms. Fortunately, eggs that look like a glob of frog/fish eggs encased in one ovoid parasite-type egg seem pretty easy to identify correctly. My mileage may vary on others, but I am thankful that my biggest fear appears easiest to identify.

I see what you mean about the cover slip. You simply fill the tube completely full after centrifuging so that it wets the bottom side of the cover slip as it sits at rest.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Don't give up on women yet. I am told there is someone for everyone.

Funny you would go this way! I was satisfied that I was perfectly content being single and without children. Then came the alpacas, and they became my children. Last night at Walmart, I crossed paths with the girl who used to live next to my mom (who I had quite a crush on back when). She never married, never had children, and has a couple of dogs who are her children. It also turns out that she wants alpacas, and then proceeded to share some goals that listed off like she had come into possession of my own bucket list and list of projects in progress (and we have no living mutual acquaintances, and the dead ones were gone before the list was formed). I am starting to wonder if I am as happy being single as I prefer to believe. Still, the level of freedom to which I am accustomed is hard to give up, or even contemplate the remote possibility of giving up!

 

[HamsterStyle]

Don't know much about goats but 30'x30' Doesn't seem big enough to me for 2 goats as a pasture, I would think it will be a dirt lot 90% of the time. If over grazed goats, sheep and horses can killing grass, they nibble it right down to the root. Not trying to sway you, just FYI.

Someone has given you really bad advice on Chickens. A 30'x30' would be ideal for a small flock of a dozen or two.

While.the goats would live in this pen, they would not be just grazers. They would be fed a mixture of hay, pellets, some scraps, and possible some grain on occasion. We are considering pygmy or nigerian dwarfs. Both on the small side. While they could definitely eat whatever they want in the pen, that would not be their sole food source. We also plan on raising them like pets. Letting them out of the pen when we are out and that sort of thing.

As far as the chickens are concerned, we haven't written them off. We actually look forward to getting some in the future. They will be workers though. Not pets. Right now, the focus is looking for a pet.

 

[shibumiseeker]

While.the goats would live in this pen, they would not be just grazers. They would be fed a mixture of hay, pellets, some scraps, and possible some grain on occasion. We are considering pygmy or nigerian dwarfs. Both on the small side. While they could definitely eat whatever they want in the pen, that would not be their sole food source. We also plan on raising them like pets. Letting them out of the pen when we are out and that sort of thing.

As far as the chickens are concerned, we haven't written them off. We actually look forward to getting some in the future. They will be workers though. Not pets. Right now, the focus is looking for a pet.

Even with hay and grain, it took one 30lb goat about a week to eat down to bare dirt everything in a 2000sq ft pen. And this is with chaining him out in various areas outside during the day. Just as long as you are prepared for it.

 

[Tactically Fat]

And with bare dirt....comes mud. And if the whole thing is muddy long enough, or if it's of a topography to allow water to stand long enough, it'll lead to hoof/foot problems.

30x30 just isn't very big.

At a minimum, alpaca need about 1/5 acre. (What I read was stated that you can easily have 5 alpaca per acre)

The pen you have may suffice as an "overnight" keep, but as the only place a critter ever is - seems pretty small.

 

[dusty88]

One solution to the small pen/dirt/mud is to set up a rotation system, even an informal one. Almost any lot of any size will get constantly beaten down if a hooved animal has constant access to it. If you can eventually set up another door to the shelter and use either permanent or temporary fencing, you can give your lot some rest/rotation. Premiere makes a semi-permanent electric fence that works pretty well for sheep and goats, once you get them trained to it.

 

[wagyu52]

One solution to the small pen/dirt/mud is to set up a rotation system, even an informal one. Almost any lot of any size will get constantly beaten down if a hooved animal has constant access to it. If you can eventually set up another door to the shelter and use either permanent or temporary fencing, you can give your lot some rest/rotation. Premiere makes a semi-permanent electric fence that works pretty well for sheep and goats, once you get them trained to it.

I wouldn't have livestock without an electric fence. My cows are hot wire trained and are only held in with a single temp strand on corn stalks right now. Every goat I've seen has been hard on fences, a hot wire is a must.

 

[Woobie]

I would look into electric netting if you want to go that route. My sheep were in a pasture with electric wire. They went right through it all the time. It didn't bother them a bit, especially during winter. It about has to touch their nose to affect them. YMMV

 

[EPeter213]

Has anyone tried invisible fence with goats? Not a goat keeper, just curious.