Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

[BugI02]

Cyanosis - if it existed - would be readily apparent even if they were not looking for it. It is a visible thing, hard to miss.
That being said, you don't get cyanosis from carbon monoxide poisoning.

Cyanosis is also observed when a chemical agent blocks the ability of hemoglobin to bind oxygen. For example, carbon monoxide, CO, a product of incomplete combustion, binds to hemoglobin approximately 200 times better than oxygen. Victims of carbon monoxide poisoning often have blue lips and fingernails.

The MSDS HyperGlossary: Cyanosis

Entry in the Material Safety Data Sheet HyperGlossary at ILPI.

www.ilpi.com

 

[nonobaddog]

The MSDS HyperGlossary: Cyanosis

Entry in the Material Safety Data Sheet HyperGlossary at ILPI.

www.ilpi.com

Please look at some other sources.
Yes, it is possible to have blue looking extremities when poisoned with carbon monoxide but not as common as they seem to imply.
The color of the Hemoglobin changes depending on what is associated with it.
Hemoglobin and oxygen - blood red
Hemoglobin and carbon dioxide - dark red (even appears blue when filtered through skin)
Hemoglobin and carbon monoxide - bright red (toward pink)

So when you die of carbon monoxide poisoning there are a lot of variables.
If you are in pretty normal condition you don't show much for color.
If you are in very good cardiovascular health it will take more carbon monoxide to kill you and you can turn bright red, even pinkish.
If you are in bad shape it doesn't take as much carbon monoxide to kill you. This means you will have enough bright red hemoglobin to kill you but you will have the rest of the hemoglobin that is not attached to carbon monoxide so it is darker.

You end up with a mixture of
bright red carbon monoxide blood,
blood red oxygen blood
and dark red carbon dioxide blood.

It depends on the amount of the various constituents which colors may or may not be dominant.

Carbon monoxide kills you because it sticks to the hemoglobin much better than oxygen or carbon dioxide. This makes it unavailable for oxygen transport or carbon dioxide transport. When enough hemoglobin is tied up by the carbon monoxide you will start getting symptoms and could eventually die from it. It takes more to kill some people than others.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Sorry about just now getting back to you on this; busy week.
I wont say that Chauvin's fully body weight, or even most of it was on Floyd's neck. To me, it seems common sense that there was enough of Chauvin's weight on Floyd's neck to cause distress. If I placed a 25, 35, or 45lb kettlebell on your neck, that ain't going to be comfortable. You're goin g to have a hard time telling me that a guy like Chauvin who looks 200Lbs+ isn't transferring a sizeable amount of his weight to the focal point at his knee.
As far as bruising, that really not a gauge of anything, some people bruise easily, some don't; it all depends.

Now, to the training. You say that the knee was in MPD training... or more specifically, the training manual. Yes, that pretty crazy; but here's something from my personal experience. When I was at ILEA we had a manual on defensive tactics. You studied it, and then passed the tests associated with it. Once those tests were passed, I never opened that book again. Instead, we had several "hands on" department trainings throughout the year. If MPD is the same way, and the knee on the neck technique is routinely demonstrated, then I think Chauvin, at least, has a solid defense for using it. If they don't, and specifically warned officers about using the technique, despite it being in the manual (kinda like how blood chokes are viewed today), then that will be problematic.

Floyd may have been a "dead man walking." It has been indicated that he had a fatal amount of dope in his system. The problem with that, is that he's a drug abuser who apparently is no stranger to OD'ing. Again from personal experience, I have witnessed situations where doctors have shrugged their shoulders concerning a highly intoxicated person, and said "I don't know how they still are alive/on their feet." So "fatal" often referenced to effects on the standard person. Floyd may not have been that. If we are to believe that Floyd would have died of an OD, then you have to convince yourself that it was simply a coincidence that he died while he had Chauvin's knee pressed against his neck.

Thank you for the response... and I agree with most of what you said except...

The standard is not that the defense has to prove that Floyd was going to die from an OD... I think the defense is going to paint that it was likely given the meth/fentanyl speedball that Floyd was on. From what I've read (all drug OD sources dated prior to Floyd) it is common for the meth/stimulant to "win" initially, then after a period of time, for the fentanyl/opioid to "win" resulting in a "crash", and that is when there is danger of cardiac and respiratory shutdown due to the depressants effect on the organs.

And, I think this is why they fought to have the one previous arrest admitted... because that time he gulped down the drugs, OD'ed and had to be rushed to the hospital to save his life. I think the defense is going to say this was a repeat, but this time he ran out of time.

On the flip side, the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt "but for" the knee, Floyd would still be alive. I think the coroner and other medical expert testimony will be the driving factor on that.

On a side note, Morries/Maurice appears to be the one who sold Floyd fake Percocet... that was really meth/fentanyl.

 

[Tombs]

I was just watching Court TV where the officer had Floyd pinned down at the back of the squad car and I noticed a stream of water running down from the tailpipe. The squad car was running and Floyd was pinned down near the exhaust pipe, I wonder if he died from exfixiation from carbon monoxide?
Floyd said he couldn't breathe but how could he speak if he couldn't breathe unless he was breathing in carbon monoxide?
It seems to me that this should be pointed out to officials.

Go back and watch the full tape, he was complaining about being unable to breathe a good 10 minutes before he was ever put on the ground.

The reason he ended up on the ground is that he was freaking out in the back of the cop car and specifically asked to be placed on the ground. Sadly, good will on the part of the officer is what has lead to ending this officer's career. If the officer didn't care, he would have locked Floyd in the back of the SUV and ignored him.

I wager there were a fair number of contributions to his death. I believe the officer's good will of not simply locking him in the back of the truck, but allowing him to get on the ground, as requested, should be considered when judging Chauvin's actions.

The primary error in Chauvin's actions, in my opinion, was not requesting an ambulance when Floyd started acting so bizarrely. But that's also probably par for the course in police work, so that's a hard call for me to really make.

 

[SwikLS]

Y'all are kiddin' urselves. This guy is gonna be convicted cuz too many careers are on the line. Everyting is corrupted and aint nothing you can do about it unless.....

 

[Tombs]

Y'all are kiddin' urselves. This guy is gonna be convicted cuz too many careers are on the line. Everyting is corrupted and aint nothing you can do about it unless.....

Well, if we lived in a nation of laws, this would have been declared a mistrial at the point the jurors refused to watch video evidence.

So yeah it certainly does appear to be an even lower form of justice than a military tribunal. The thing folks aren't realizing is that riots will happen regardless, because no charge, and no punishment, will ever satisfy the mob.

And there's no sane way anyone could place his actions as anything worse than manslaughter. In fact, can anyone here who actually believes Chauvin committed murder, present a reasonable argument for that? Even if you don't believe his actions were murder, could you?

 

[nonobaddog]

Go back and watch the full tape, he was complaining about being unable to breathe a good 10 minutes before he was ever put on the ground.

The reason he ended up on the ground is that he was freaking out in the back of the cop car and specifically asked to be placed on the ground. Sadly, good will on the part of the officer is what has lead to ending this officer's career. If the officer didn't care, he would have locked Floyd in the back of the SUV and ignored him.

I wager there were a fair number of contributions to his death. I believe the officer's good will of not simply locking him in the back of the truck, but allowing him to get on the ground, as requested, should be considered when judging Chauvin's actions.

The primary error in Chauvin's actions, in my opinion, was not requesting an ambulance when Floyd started acting so bizarrely. But that's also probably par for the course in police work, so that's a hard call for me to really make.

He was claiming to have claustrophobia and didn't want to get in the car, but he sure didn't seem to have any claustrophobia sitting in the car across the street. I suspect he didn't want to be locked in because he was desperate and was still resisting and thinking he might be able to get away somewhere.
In hindsight it would have been a lot better to lock him in.

 

[Tombs]

He was claiming to have claustrophobia and didn't want to get in the car, but he sure didn't seem to have any claustrophobia sitting in the car across the street. I suspect he didn't want to be locked in because he was desperate and was still resisting and thinking he might be able to get away somewhere.
In hindsight it would have been a lot better to lock him in.

Having dealt with anxiety myself, and many others who have it, I don't believe he had claustrophobia, it was just the word that was coming to mind. He was ODing on a bunch of drugs and probably having a nightmare level panic attack as a result of it.

It would have been better to lock him in the car, FOR THE OFFICER. But I also question if he would have lived either way with his heart condition, drugs, and anxiety levels.

As I said, I think good will on behalf of the officer is ultimately what he is being punished for. Which is why, even though I don't defend LEO that often, I will defend them in this situation no matter what after having watched the full tape. This might be the most clear cut example of "no good deed goes unpunished" I've ever seen in my life.

As for people complaining about the knee... Would you rather the officer let him worm his way into traffic and get run over? It looked like the most convenient way to keep him from injuring himself, given how long all of this had been going on. I also never once heard Floyd specifically complain about his knee, or position. And before someone says it, Floyd had been complaining about being unable to breathe long before he was on the ground. That's a common problem to have with a severe panic attack, and won't kill you by its self, no matter how scary it is.

 

[KG1]

Having dealt with anxiety myself, and many others who have it, I don't believe he had claustrophobia, it was just the word that was coming to mind. He was ODing on a bunch of drugs and probably having a nightmare level panic attack as a result of it.

It would have been better to lock him in the car, FOR THE OFFICER. But I also question if he would have lived either way with his heart condition, drugs, and anxiety levels.

As I said, I think good will on behalf of the officer is ultimately what he is being punished for. Which is why, even though I don't defend LEO that often, I will defend them in this situation no matter what after having watched the full tape. This might be the most clear cut example of "no good deed goes unpunished" I've ever seen in my life.

As for people complaining about the knee... Would you rather the officer let him worm his way into traffic and get run over? It looked like the most convenient way to keep him from injuring himself, given how long all of this had been going on. I also never once heard Floyd specifically complain about his knee, or position. And before someone says it, Floyd had been complaining about being unable to breathe long before he was on the ground. That's a common problem to have with a severe panic attack, and won't kill you by its self, no matter how scary it is.

While I don't believe it was murder I think you're being generous with they were doing a "good deed" angle. They only took him out and put him on the ground to control him. I'm not saying they necessarily intended to harm or kill him though.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I have no problem with the failure to realize Floyd needed an ambulance sooner than the officers did. After all, Floyd had been b****ing about most every ailment this side of menstrual cramps and rigor mortis.

 

[nonobaddog]

While I don't believe it was murder I think you're being generous with they were doing a "good deed" angle. They only took him out and put him on the ground to control him. I'm not saying they necessarily intended to harm or kill him though.

Oh I don't know. During the video I was a little surprised the police went along with Floyd's request to lay on the ground. I've seen lots of videos where they shove somebody in the car in spite of any protests and Floyd's protests seemed pretty lame at the time. The back seats are setup to hold people without tying up any resources or taking any further manpower.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

The primary error in Chauvin's actions, in my opinion, was not requesting an ambulance when Floyd started acting so bizarrely. But that's also probably par for the course in police work, so that's a hard call for me to really make.

What is par for the course, not requesting an ambulance or people acting bizarrely?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Has anyone mentioned that Chauvin’s supervisor, a detective, and Lt thought his use of force was excessive; and that Chauvin’s own lawyer tried to say that his knee was on his back, NOT his neck? We just gonna pass over that? It would seem to me that the defense’s only real chance at acquittal is that the dope in Floyd’s system killed him, and that Chauvin’s actions, while excessive, did not contribute. I think that’s an uphill battle.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What is par for the course, not requesting an ambulance or people acting bizarrely?

Wait, you didn’t get an MD at the academy?

 

[Tombs]

What is par for the course, not requesting an ambulance or people acting bizarrely?

Encountering drunk, drugged, or psychotic people.

Sheesh, I'd have thought with the tone of the rest of the post that wouldn't have been read as cup half empty.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Encountering drunk, drugged, or psychotic people.

Sheesh, I'd have thought with the tone of the rest of the post that wouldn't have been read as cup half empty.

Just asking for clarification.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Wait, you didn’t get an MD at the academy?

Well I was an EMT for 8.5 years but I let that expire.

 

[Ark]

I have no problem with the failure to realize Floyd needed an ambulance sooner than the officers did. After all, Floyd had been b****ing about most every ailment this side of menstrual cramps and rigor mortis.

Yeah I mean it's crass but who doesn't whine about this or that medical complaint as they're being loaded into the cruiser? People think if they can get sent to the hospital instead, they can avoid jail. People will say or do anything to avoid jail.

 

[Tombs]

I have no problem with the failure to realize Floyd needed an ambulance sooner than the officers did. After all, Floyd had been b****ing about most every ailment this side of menstrual cramps and rigor mortis.

As I said, it's legitimately the only criticism I can even come up with.
That doesn't make it a good or valid criticism.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yeah I mean it's crass but who doesn't whine about this or that medical complaint as they're being loaded into the cruiser? People think if they can get sent to the hospital instead, they can avoid jail. People will say or do anything to avoid jail.

He could have refrained from telling every fiction in the book and said, "Officer, I just shoved enough drugs up my ass to kill a rhinoceros."

Likewise, his friends who were all exercised over his heart problems could have come clean.

It is NOT Officer Chauvin's fault that a pack of liars lied to him until he discovered on his own, too late to make a difference, that Dumbass was lying and was approaching death for reasons that were deliberately concealed.