DoD Releases Plan to Allow Personnel to Carry Firearms on Base

[Woobie]

My fault for assuming the relevant similarity was self evident. While increasing my personal risk, it reduces institutional risk. Not that soldiers are prisoners (although, as I recall, there were some marked similarities), or that they would disarm each other. Is the military's goal reducing personal risk for an individual soldier, or is it reducing institutional risk via losing less troops overall?

To paraphrase:

1) The risk of ND/AD is not zero. I've already laid out the relevant facts for this, and the fact military members have accidentally shot themselves right here in this county this year. There is no requirement for malfeasance or evil intent. ADs can be reduced through proper training (that DoD will never implement widely) but will never be eliminated. It's neither anti-gun nor anti-soldier to recognize this and include it in decision making.

2) Gun owners shoot themselves more often that they shoot bad guys, by a pretty large margin. In the civilian world, that's the price of freedom. It's not simply about the ratio of bad guys shot to ADs, there's significantly more at stake. In the military, freedom is secondary to mission and the individual is secondary to the unit. Unless that's changed as well.

3) Soldiers are humans and citizens, but they are also assets. See #2.

I knew where you were going with it, I just didn't think it applied very well.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I knew where you were going with it, I just didn't think it applied very well.

Ok. Is the military about individual security or institutional security?

 

[10mmMarc]

Not allowing them to carry makes as much sense to me as having NYPD having to turn in their weapons at the end of their shift to an arms room, and then telling them they aren't allowed to carry when off duty.
The people that should be armed, should be armed at all times, if they choose.

 

[Woobie]

Ok. Is the military about individual security or institutional security?

Neither. It is an institution made up of individuals organized for the purpose of national security. Toward that end, the institution must be preserved, and the individuals who belong to it must be taken into consideration.

 

[Brad69]

Armed
A person equipped with a firearm that has a live round of ammunition in a magazineinserted into the firearm, chamber, or cylinder.

I love regulations skimmed the reg. Seems like a fairly good plan the barracks rats will continue to-store in the arms room. Will require safe secure storage. Weapon must be completely concealed. Must complete background checks.
Most of the reg covers expanding duty carry for more personnel.




Warning shots are prohibited in the United States.
Yes that's in the Reg.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Neither. It is an institution made up of individuals organized for the purpose of national security. Toward that end, the institution must be preserved, and the individuals who belong to it must be taken into consideration.

Well, again I'm sure you see where it's going and instead of confronting the point made you sort of flank the issue at hand.

 

[Woobie]

Well, again I'm sure you see where it's going and instead of confronting the point made you sort of flank the issue at hand.

Not at all. You offered a false choice. Socratic method only works if you offer options that reflect reality.

 

[in625shooter]

We're talking about people carrying their firearm on post as they go about their day like anybody with a permit/license does. If the criteria to do that was to be a 'tip of the spear' operator or have any semi-combat experience most on this forum would have to turn in their LTCH.

My point was/is just because someone is in the Military doesn't equate to training or ability. Similar to LTCH. Just because several folks have them doesn't mean all of them are prepared either.

 

[Brad69]

In the Reg it outlines that everyone would have to receive training, qualification and use of force classes.

It didn't realize I was surrounded by such untrained people with lack of ability for most of my adult life how in the heck did I survive?
Good thing only 1% serve in Military!

 

[rooster]

Wow! I am disappointed in this community. Here I thought this was a pro gun forum. I was raised around guns but was never really a "gun guy" until I came home from my first tour. I was part of command cell and as such I turned in my m16 to the armory and was given an m9. I and many other on command cell had no real training on pistols at that point other than a safety familiarization in pre mob. We had zero ND's or other issues dispite (according to some here) being given live ammunition for the entirety of the tour. I believe that our service members are well trained in weapons safety and should be afforded the opportunity to carry. Especially with the current threats.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I wonder why a soldier (any branch) that has to qualify with a weapon, cannot them be trusted to carry it?

my cousin was active with the army. He checked in to a civilian flight and was made an air marshal for the flight, complete with a handgun. No one died. He was not given training before the flight, just told to step up if needed. No one needs additional training.

I wasn't in the service, but have heard you'd get knocked down/out if you muzzle swept someone...

 

[oldpink]

Well, it's good to see what a low opinion even veterans have of those serving in the military, so much so that they would see that they be sacrificed to the next Islamist on a rampage.

 

[freekforge]

I really have no real input but I have worked with several guardsmen who have taken the classes required to carry in Indiana and they are pretty squared away and safe. Maybe the DOD can look at what Indiana is doing and use that to work around the problems brought up in this thread.

edit guess woobie beat me to it

 

[oldpink]

I really have no real input but I have worked with several guardsmen who have taken the classes required to carry in Indiana and they are pretty squared away and safe. Maybe the DOD can look at what Indiana is doing and use that to work around the problems brought up in this thread.

No no no
Haven't you heard?
Active duty members are little more than trained orangutans who couldn't possibly be entrusted with such responsibility.

 

[freekforge]

Well i have had a m16 with BFA pointed at me when i was in the same building as marines but a senior nco chewed his a$$ out for it. Maybe if we add a really mean marine nco to indianas training program you would have the safest service members on earth.

 

[in625shooter]

my cousin was active with the army. He checked in to a civilian flight and was made an air marshal for the flight, complete with a handgun. No one died. He was not given training before the flight, just told to step up if needed. No one needs additional training.

I wasn't in the service, but have heard you'd get knocked down/out if you muzzle swept someone...

Respectfully I must say someone wasn't truthful with you. First i am a Lead Firearms instructor within DOJ and use to work with the US Marshals Service. The only Fed LE's be they FBI, Marshals even BOP etc that can carry armed on a commercial flight are ones that attended a special course at FLETC. Each LEO is issued a special 6 digit number that is tracked and controlled through TSA.

There were a few LEO's (mostly FED) that were allowed to fly armed after LEOSA however TSA and Homeland Security tightened that up with agency letterhead and the special number tracked through their course attendance.

 

[in625shooter]

Wow! I am disappointed in this community. Here I thought this was a pro gun forum. I was raised around guns but was never really a "gun guy" until I came home from my first tour. I was part of command cell and as such I turned in my m16 to the armory and was given an m9. I and many other on command cell had no real training on pistols at that point other than a safety familiarization in pre mob. We had zero ND's or other issues dispite (according to some here) being given live ammunition for the entirety of the tour. I believe that our service members are well trained in weapons safety and should be afforded the opportunity to carry. Especially with the current threats.

Well, it's good to see what a low opinion even veterans have of those serving in the military, so much so that they would see that they be sacrificed to the next Islamist on a rampage.

Maybe I misread something but I'm not seeing where anyone was against it outright just several of us (me included) only stated several issues we have observed. Just because they are Military does not means they are proficient as they should be, no different than many that have LTCH are not as proficient as they should be and even some LEO's are not as proficient as they should be either.

Just

Just because someone is Military or an NCO means they are all that with a firearm. I have seen it several times over o. Several Military ranges I ran.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe I misread something but I'm not seeing where anyone was against it outright just several of us (me included) only stated several issues we have observed. Just because they are Military does not means they are proficient as they should be, no different than many that have LTCH are not as proficient as they should be and even some LEO's are not as proficient as they should be either.

Just

Just because someone is Military or an NCO means they are all that with a firearm. I have seen it several times over o. Several Military ranges I ran.

We're failing oldpink's purity test by asking questions and pointing out potential issues. I suspect most folks here are on the same page, or close. Even Woobie mentioned he sees potential issues in the barracks.

But, let's play along for a minute.

How many troops lost to terrorists, or violence of any type that could be prevented by being armed while in garrison? Then, how many have been killed by ADs in training or in the field?

Article from 2009: Accidental deaths plaguing US troops in Iraq - The Boston Globe

Another major cause of accidents are so-called negligent discharges - or accidental gunshots - which the Marine Corps report said increased every year between 2004 and 2008, including those involving "more senior, highly trained personnel." More than 180 troops have died from accidental gunshot wounds since the invasion, most recently two Marines in Anbar Province who died within the past two weeks, according to the Pentagon.
Miller said many of the accidental-discharge deaths involved units that had recently arrived in the combat zone, suggesting that lack of training played a role.

126 accidental discharges reported in an 8 month period during OEF: https://www.dvidshub.net/news/12275/negligent-discharges-they-affect-service-members

Since January 2007, there have been 126 reported negligent discharges in the Operation Enduring Freedom area of operation resulting in the deaths of three people and the injuring of 11 people.

Going back to 2004: 'Disturbing trend' seen in negligent discharges of weapons in Afghanistan - News - Stripes

KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, Afghanistan — In the past 18 months, troops in Afghanistan have accidentally killed themselves or others at least six times and wounded nearly two dozen more troops through unsafe weapons handling, according to Army statistics released to Stars and Stripes.In what military officials call negligent discharges, last year troops mistakenly fired their weapons 24 times in Afghanistan, injuring 18 and killing four.
So far this year, five troops have been wounded and two more have been killed in 16 accidental discharges.

Negligent Discharges Kill 90 U.S. Soldiers in Iraq - The Truth About Guns

Birdzell, a former Marine, attributes this to what he describes and a dysfunctional culture regarding guns and training in the Military. He recounts some horrifically reckless gun handling and negligent discharge examples.
Almost as disturbing than the NDs were the responses the them by commanders. “After that, the battalion commander wanted weapons unloaded inside the compound and Condition 3 on guard towers (magazine inserted, no round in the chamber).” In Iraq. During a war.

Navy Recruiter Suffers Negligent Handgun Discharge In Georgia - Bearing Arms - Chattanooga, Georgia, Navy, Negligent Discharge, Tennessee (If you count the Navy as military...)

"I think we have to be careful about over-arming ourselves, and I'm not talking about where you end up attacking each other," Gen. Ray Odierno, chief of staff of the Army, told reporters. Instead, he said, it's more about "accidental discharges and everything else that goes along with having weapons that are loaded that causes injuries."

So, perhaps we're not the only ones with the concern. If looking at the facts fails the purity test, so be it.

 

[mammynun]

We're failing oldpink's purity test by asking questions and pointing out potential issues. I suspect most folks here are on the same page, or close. Even Woobie mentioned he sees potential issues in the barracks.

But, let's play along for a minute.

How many troops lost to terrorists, or violence of any type that could be prevented by being armed while in garrison? Then, how many have been killed by ADs in training or in the field?

Article from 2009: Accidental deaths plaguing US troops in Iraq - The Boston Globe



126 accidental discharges reported in an 8 month period during OEF: https://www.dvidshub.net/news/12275/negligent-discharges-they-affect-service-members



Going back to 2004: 'Disturbing trend' seen in negligent discharges of weapons in Afghanistan - News - Stripes



Negligent Discharges Kill 90 U.S. Soldiers in Iraq - The Truth About Guns



Navy Recruiter Suffers Negligent Handgun Discharge In Georgia - Bearing Arms - Chattanooga, Georgia, Navy, Negligent Discharge, Tennessee (If you count the Navy as military...)



So, perhaps we're not the only ones with the concern. If looking at the facts fails the purity test, so be it.

As anyone that has served in the military already knows, "reported" incidents will only scratch the surface; most will be dealt with at the lowest possible level.

 

[Brad69]

Good comments seems like when the Army went to locked and loaded at all times N/D,s went down. Most of the N/D were centered around a culture of clearing weapons instead of the weapon is loaded. Guess what if you don't unload and reload a weapon sometimes up to 5 or 6 times a day N/D,s go down who would have thought it!