Coronovirus IV

[jamil]

Faked? No. Not saying that, in that I have no doubt the video is real.

I'm saying it is not an accurate representation of a person breathing normally and the affect a mask has on normal breath and most importantly, droplets expelled under normal respiratory pressure.

He wanted the mask leak, so he made sure the mask leaked.

Now do actual viruses.

 

[JettaKnight]

A President should be held accountable for his orders, not what an agency they inherited that is insulated and somewhat autonomous, that largely opposes them. That is the key difference you will not acknowledge, in example, that the justice department was fully onboard with Obama and doing what his AG wanted. Trump had the AG office go after him...

Do I need to remember this quote in case Joe Biden is elected?

 

[T.Lex]

Do I need to remember this quote in case Joe Biden is elected?

Sarcasm?

 

[BugI02]

I bite. What's a more effective intervention that we are not doing?

Don't intervene

 

[JettaKnight]

Sarcasm?

If Trump was a democrat, I'm sure he wouldn't get a pass for CDC doing something.


FTR, I think the CDC is at least acting somewhat outside of his purview.

 

[JettaKnight]

Don't intervene

Sort of a Followers of Christ medical refusal sort of thing, huh?

 

[HoughMade]

Now do actual viruses.

...in water droplets expelled in the volume and pressures of actual breathing, and I would be interested.

 

[JettaKnight]

Faked? No. Not saying that, in that I have no doubt the video is real.

I'm saying it is not an accurate representation of a person breathing normally and the affect a mask has on normal breath and most importantly, droplets expelled under normal respiratory pressure.

He wanted the mask leak, so he made sure the mask leaked.

And when he exhaled, he did so like he was smoking a cigar, and not simply breathing normally.


I'd have a little more face in Dr. Noel, but a quick check so he's partisan as all get out. He seems to have bug up his butt about remotely diagnosing Mrs. Clinton with Parkinsons.

 

[BugI02]

I agree the virus has absolutely no idea if it's in a church, a Walmart or at a protest. etc, etc

ETA: On mask effectiveness, we disagree. I am sincere in thanking Mike for finding and presenting this video of a vape test. I'm happy that my setup passed with flying colors and would recommend anyone who is concerned about their mask wearing to do the test themselves and not believe any random person on the Internet... I know I don't.

Give this a test drive

https://www.realclearscience.com/ar...g_our_lessons_from_asymptomatic_covid-19.html
Learning Our Lessons From Asymptomatic Covid-19

Then ask yourself, if a mask is filtering larger particles but allowing aerosol sized particles to escape, in a closed room with low air exchange (like virtually all large air conditioned office and public buildings) is it protecting the people wearing them or making it more likely the will get a case. And if the general public knew how sketchy the protection provided by the talisman is, might they make a different decision about placing themselves in that situation

I checked the guy out because I had never heard of him. He has a clinic in the Hawaiian islands. Full disclosure his website mentions non-western medicine and his wife is part of the practice and a Naturopathic physician (NMD). Despite some misgivings, the guy struck me as a kind of medical TLex - a talented amateur attempting to make sense of conflicting data and arrive at a conclusion that he believes in. You know, kind of what mask skeptics want to do

 

[Ingomike]

Do I need to remember this quote in case Joe Biden is elected?

I'm good with that as long as the second sentence is included.

Yes, Obama oversaw treasury and by extension IRS, he is not personally responsible for their actions. I struggle with the current state of affairs that the civil servants do not need marching orders to know what is in the interest of their chosen party and can execute it without a direct order from the executive. Does anyone believe that Obama was disappointed the IRS staff was harming conservative organizations that were against him?

By the same token I have reservations about when a republican cannot get things done because the same group knows what to do to delay or even stop the other party. I have no trouble believing the IRS staff would fast track the documentation of groups against Trump, even today.

 

[NKBJ]

When in Rome...

There's the chance a mosquito may bite you on a previously inaccessible member if you don't zip your fly in public.
Oh, but that's not the reason for zipping up.

Same thing with the mask. Wear your mask to conform to the sensibilities of those around you. All through history there have been different expectations on what to cover. How about them Minoan babes, hey? So here and now everybody wants faces covered. How they got trained into that is besides the point, just wear it and be thankful you still have a choice in style and color.

 

[jamil]

...in water droplets expelled in the volume and pressures of actual breathing, and I would be interested.

I'm saying let's be fair about what these kinds of demonstrations are doing and what they're not doing. There have been several such tests that people have published to say that masks are effective, but the thing they're testing isn't really the thing we're interested in. For example, there's the petri dish test where someone coughs into a petri dish without a mask and then with a mask. Well, that's not a fair test that proves anything more about mask being effective against covid than this smoke test does to prove masks aren't effective. Another example is where they use some wiz bang tech to show airflow with a mask and without a mask while coughing/sneezing/talking. And that's pretty much the same thing. That test only deals with aerosols. So if the problem is droplets, that test doesn't really address it. Neither are proof.

What we rely on is a belief that covid spreads primarily through droplets, and that masks should be somewhat effective against the biggest droplets which have the highest viral load. So IDGAF about these stupid tests like the smoke test, the pitri test, and whateverthe**** other tests people have pushed that test masks for things we're not interested in. How is covid spread? Is it droplets? Is it aerosols? Is it both? Experts have not answered that question definitively. So we're just going the most popular one.

Bottom line, though I think it's better than not to wear masks when you can't socially distance from other people, I don't think the case is strong enough to justify mandating it. And it's not even strong enough to justify mask-shaming people. So maybe society should just chill the **** out on that.

 

[T.Lex]

Bottom line, though I think it's better than not to wear masks when you can't socially distance from other people, I don't think the case is strong enough to justify mandating it. And it's not even strong enough to justify mask-shaming people. So maybe society should just chill the **** out on that.

 

[nonobaddog]

It is OK to be against the mandatory crap of forcing people to wear masks without attacking the inanimate object of the mask itself.


When you are dealing with a pathogen that is transmitted through airborne particles and droplets it is reasonable to accept that it might be a good thing to filter the air.

There is a wide variety of masks - some do very little - some filter very well. Some are no more than ear-to-ear rags strung near an air hole or two, others make an airtight seal around the nose and mouth so all air going in is filtered.

It doesn't make much sense to make blanket statements like 'masks don't do anything'. It is not the mask that deserves attacking - it is the overreaching politicians.

 

[jamil]

It is OK to be against the mandatory crap of forcing people to wear masks without attacking the inanimate object of the mask itself.


When you are dealing with a pathogen that is transmitted through airborne particles and droplets it is reasonable to accept that it might be a good thing to filter the air.

There is a wide variety of masks - some do very little - some filter very well. Some are no more than ear-to-ear rags strung near an air hole or two, others make an airtight seal around the nose and mouth so all air going in is filtered.

It doesn't make much sense to make blanket statements like 'masks don't do anything'. It is not the mask that deserves attacking - it is the overreaching politicians.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nonobaddog again.

 

[HoughMade]

...Bottom line, though I think it's better than not to wear masks when you can't socially distance from other people, I don't think the case is strong enough to justify mandating it. And it's not even strong enough to justify mask-shaming people. So maybe society should just chill the **** out on that.

Don't disagree.

I would only add a couple of things. The evidence does not show that masks do "nothing" (as claimed)...and the idea that people who either wear masks or don't rail against wearing masks are anti-freedom, weak or scared is...inane.

You're right, we should just chill and quit whining all around.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Give this a test drive

https://www.realclearscience.com/ar...g_our_lessons_from_asymptomatic_covid-19.html
Learning Our Lessons From Asymptomatic Covid-19

Then ask yourself, if a mask is filtering larger particles but allowing aerosol sized particles to escape, in a closed room with low air exchange (like virtually all large air conditioned office and public buildings) is it protecting the people wearing them or making it more likely the will get a case. And if the general public knew how sketchy the protection provided by the talisman is, might they make a different decision about placing themselves in that situation

I checked the guy out because I had never heard of him. He has a clinic in the Hawaiian islands. Full disclosure his website mentions non-western medicine and his wife is part of the practice and a Naturopathic physician (NMD). Despite some misgivings, the guy struck me as a kind of medical TLex - a talented amateur attempting to make sense of conflicting data and arrive at a conclusion that he believes in. You know, kind of what mask skeptics want to do

Interesting, but he overlooked two ways (that I could think of off hand) that high asymptotic rates in certain populations could come about:

1. Testing... the enclosed populations he discussed with the high and astronomically high asymptotic rates were in prisons (and still high, but less so cruise ships). But both shared one characteristic that is different than the general populations he was comparing against... 100% testing. One hypothesis is that there are a lot more asymptotic folks out there, they just never have cause to be tested. As we test more and find more... why does the CFR go down? We're finding proportionally more asymptomatic and mild cases, IMO, than when the hurdle for getting a test was very high symptom-wise, bias selecting out asymptomatic/mild cases.

2. One area of study is looking at a significant chunk of the gen-pop has T-cells reactive to SARS-COV-2, but they've never had COVID nor have the antibodies. The theory is that a different coronavirus, either a strain of one of the 4 lines of common cold or something else had enough protein similarity to equip them with some effective T-cell immunity, so their immune systems got an early start. They weere seeing, IIRC, 30-40% and postulated THAT might be genesis for the asymptomatic/mild cases. So if that percentage of the general population had that, how effective do you think a cold would be in spreading in a prison? I could be all wrong about this since it's still being investigated, but my gut tells me this might be the missing piece of the puzzle - and it fits both with NYC experience and with high asymptomatic in enormously crowded prisons where everyone ends up with the same cold. (one test for this would be of longer term residents versus new arrivals (who came after the cold had already swept through) i.e. a time series.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nonobaddog again.

Got him for both of us.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I keep noticing that all of this mask talk is in the CoronaVirus thread instead of the mask thread... oh well, us INGOers.

Now for something completely different, non-mask coronavirus discusion:
@BugI02, since our discussion a few days ago I've been thinking what the per capita death rate would be in the US if we followed the Sweden model. I keep coming up with whatever NYC's per capita was, more or less, since they were wide open and densely packed right up until it was obviously bad idea. And like Sweden, their new case rate is very low.

Thoughts?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Hey T.Lex! Guess what? [STRIKE]CDC[/STRIKE] Trump's CDC has now reversed it's recent stance on not testing asymptomatic people. Darn that Trump!

Cheese 'n rice... is it any wonder people don't believe a word out of these peoples' mouths? Apparently they received enough backlash that they decided to reverse their position. Tell us again how this is not politically driven? Either it was a good idea or not. "Backlash" should have nothing to do with it if they're basing their decisions on science. It's quite obvious that they're not.

Oh and lest anyone think it's because "the situation has changed as we learn more"... It took only THREE DAYS for them to change course... again. So what new scientific breakthrough occurred in the last 3 days?