Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[Cameramonkey]

Thanks for the encouragement. To me, tithing is a vow to God. As is written, better to not vow, than to vow and break the vow. I made that vow about 20 years ago, and have continued to keep it no matter what. All the rest you said, I have done and am willing to do more of the same.

Right now, the hard part is glorifying God in our current circumstances. On Monday, at the doctor's office, my wife stopped taking all the antibiotics she has been on for the last month or so. The whole health story is long and tedious, short version is COPD, lung cancer survivor, brain tumor/cancer survivor, and living with pulmonary fibrosis, chronic pneumonia, mold and fungus in right lung. All the drugs made her a "zombie vegetable", alive but not living. We believe there is more to life and living than a just heart beat and brain activity. We agreed on dropping all the meds, and the doctor even said there is no way she could survive the 9 month treatment plan. James 5:14-15 has been on my mind for two days, and today I asked for the "elders" to come and anoint my wife, and pray over her. Later, James 5:11 was shown to me, as words of encouragement for both of us.

I am still struggling with "intentional sin" versus "unintentional sin" in my life. With the power of the Holy Spirit and God's grace, I have made some improvements in that regard.

Thanks for reading and responding.

Its not all about the meds. My aunt has been fighting cancer for the last 10 years. Earlier this year they asked her to do another round of chemo, even though the outcome positivity was only in the single digits. Her response was "no. Just no. I'm old and feeling like crap for 6 months with no likely long term positive outcome isnt worth it. Put me on the hospice list. I'm done."

I've lost track of how long its been. But its been FAR longer than anyone expected. So dont assume that "pulling the plug" on a treatment means certain death. Her longevity may surprise you.

As to the visitation. Is she vigorous/energetic enough for some cards or board games? If so, invite friends/church members over for a pitch-in/game night. Or movies? Streaming episodes of The Chosen? Sometimes just calling on the sick may seem burdensome and awkward to the volunteers. Give them a fun reason to come and maybe everyone will have a great time.

 

[DadSmith]

Jeremiah 70 year return prophecy was the first return from Babylon, and yes it was fulfilled.
There is also a 2nd return prophesied.

This second return was to be from every nation where they had been dispersed. Jeremiah 16:14–15; 23:3, 7–8; 29:14; 31:7–8 not just Babylon.
Over the past 75 years or so, millions of Jews have immigrated back to the Land of Israel from all over the world from the north, south, east, and west in literal fulfillment of God’s promises in Isaiah 43:5–6. Let's not forget Isaiah 66:20 as well.
@foszoe

Edit:
The Jews were again dispersed under the Roman Empire in AD 70. After 2,000 years, they have now returned, and reestablished their country.
Name another people who were dispersed twice, one lasting over 2,000 years, and were able to establish a country for themselves again?

Modern Israel was born in one day. Which is found in Isaiah 66:8

No one has elevated Paul's teaching above others.
His doctrine is that of Christ. He even stated that. He was the apostle sent to the Gentiles to start the church with the Gentiles.

 

[foszoe]

Jeremiah 70 year return prophecy was the first return from Babylon, and yes it was fulfilled.
There is also a 2nd return prophesied.

This second return was to be from every nation where they had been dispersed. Jeremiah 16:14–15; 23:3, 7–8; 29:14; 31:7–8 not just Babylon.
Over the past 75 years or so, millions of Jews have immigrated back to the Land of Israel from all over the world from the north, south, east, and west in literal fulfillment of God’s promises in Isaiah 43:5–6. Let's not forget Isaiah 66:20 as well.
@foszoe

Edit:
The Jews were again dispersed under the Roman Empire in AD 70. After 2,000 years, they have now returned, and reestablished their country.
Name another people who were dispersed twice, one lasting over 2,000 years, and were able to establish a country for themselves again?

Modern Israel was born in one day. Which is found in Isaiah 66:8

No one has elevated Paul's teaching above others.
His doctrine is that of Christ. He even stated that. He was the apostle sent to the Gentiles to start the church with the Gentiles.

Before we begin with the scriptures, we should note that in several English translations, we see the word nation or nations which can be misleading. The Hebrew and Greek words (ethos) translated nation(s) can also be and is in other places translated as people(s). It is not imperative that we understand nation in our translations as a country or nation in the modern sense. We can clearly see this at work with the Jews, for the Jewish people are unique in that the term Jew was/is descriptive of an ethnic group, a religion, and a nation.

Let us begin with Isaiah 43:5-6.

Isaiah 43:5–6 (NKJV): 5Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth—

In verse 1 we read, Isaiah 43:1 (NKJV): 43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. So we know that the passage is addressed to Jacob and Israel. We also know that Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. If we read past Isaiah 43:5-6, we read in vs 7-9, Isaiah 43:7–9 (NKJV): 7Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him.” 8Bring out the blind people who have eyes, And the deaf who have ears. 9Let all the nations be gathered together, And let the people be assembled. Who among them can declare this, And show us former things? Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified; Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”

So we see in vs 7, everyone who is called by my name and in vs 9, Let all the nations be gathered together. look to the new testament to see who the descendants are that will be gathered up.

Romans 8:15-17 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Galatians 4:6,7 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

1 Peter 2:9–10 (NKJV): 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Turning our attention to Isaiah 66:*
Isaiah 66:8, 20

Isaiah 66:7–8 (NKJV): 7“Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. 8Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.

We know, as I said in my previous post,

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” 37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

To believe that Isaiah 66:8 must mean the formation of the modern day country of Israel is an attempt to make the scripture match an interpretation. Could it mean that? We must determine that by proper exegesis as I mentioned in my first post.
Yet the disciples consistently expected Christ was going to establish an earthly Kingdom. Not once does Jesus say He is going to do so, rather he explicitly says my kingdom is NOT of this world. Since Jesus says it is not an earthly kingdom, how should we understand the word “nation”?

Acts 2:1–5 (NKJV): 2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

We see that in one day, the nation/people of Israel, the Church is born. Acts 2:16–21 (NKJV): 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

As for Jeremiah passages, I would again look to Ezra

We look to Ezra to show that Jeremiah’s prophecies were fulfilled after the Babylonian exile.
Ezra 1:1 (NKJV): 1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,

Can you explain to me how the passages in Jeremiah are speaking of 2 returns such that the second must be the formation of the country of Israel?

 

[DragonGunner]

Also on Israel they are not believers in Christ....yet. Thus making them anti-christ. After returning after WWII there was hardly a Christian Jew among them. Then something started happening as Jews began to convert to Christianity. I was keeping watch as it grew and several years ago it was last reported 100,000 Jews that now believed in Jesus as the Messiah. I have not found anything in recent years but my guess it is probably approaching 150,000...? I watch you tube of a Jew who converted to Christ and is in Israel sharing the gospel and even converting his fellow Jews on the streets. I remember Revelation talking about the 12 tribes who do not take the mark of the Beast......144,000 total. I have read many interpretations of this scripture....but wonder if they are all wrong and this 144,000 from the 12 tribes are those that have converted to Christ. I find this very interesting. In time all the Jews will finally see that Jesus was and is the Messiah.

 

[DadSmith]

Before we begin with the scriptures, we should note that in several English translations, we see the word nation or nations which can be misleading. The Hebrew and Greek words (ethos) translated nation(s) can also be and is in other places translated as people(s). It is not imperative that we understand nation in our translations as a country or nation in the modern sense. We can clearly see this at work with the Jews, for the Jewish people are unique in that the term Jew was/is descriptive of an ethnic group, a religion, and a nation.
Let us begin with Isaiah 43:5-6.
Isaiah 43:5–6 (NKJV): 5Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
In verse 1 we read, Isaiah 43:1 (NKJV): 43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. So we know that the passage is addressed to Jacob and Israel. We also know that Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. If we read past Isaiah 43:5-6, we read in vs 7-9, Isaiah 43:7–9 (NKJV): 7Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him.” 8Bring out the blind people who have eyes, And the deaf who have ears. 9Let all the nations be gathered together, And let the people be assembled. Who among them can declare this, And show us former things? Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified; Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
So we see in vs 7, everyone who is called by my name and in vs 9, Let all the nations be gathered together. look to the new testament to see who the descendants are that will be gathered up.
Romans 8:15-17 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Galatians 4:6,7 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
1 Peter 2:9–10 (NKJV): 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Turning our attention to Isaiah 66:*
Isaiah 66:8, 20
Isaiah 66:7–8 (NKJV): 7“Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. 8Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.
We know, as I said in my previous post,
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” 37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
To believe that Isaiah 66:8 must mean the formation of the modern day country of Israel is an attempt to make the scripture match an interpretation. Could it mean that? We must determine that by proper exegesis as I mentioned in my first post.
Yet the disciples consistently expected Christ was going to establish an earthly Kingdom. Not once does Jesus say He is going to do so, rather he explicitly says my kingdom is NOT of this world. Since Jesus says it is not an earthly kingdom, how should we understand the word “nation”?
Acts 2:1–5 (NKJV): 2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
We see that in one day, the nation/people of Israel, the Church is born. Acts 2:16–21 (NKJV): 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’
As for Jeremiah passages, I would again look to Ezra
We look to Ezra to show that Jeremiah’s prophecies were fulfilled after the Babylonian exile.
Ezra 1:1 (NKJV): 1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Can you explain to me how the passages in Jeremiah are speaking of 2 returns such that the second must be the formation of the country of Israel?

I have a couple of questions for you. I'm working on a response to your post.
Do you believe that Christ has already returned and we are right now living in the 1000 year reign?

Another question is do you believe that the church will be ruptured?

What about the 144,000 from the 12 tribe's in your belief has that happened already also?

Basically I want to know what prophesy you believe has been fulfilled already, and what you think still needs to be fulfilled.

 

[foszoe]

I have a couple of questions for you. I'm working on a response to your post.
Do you believe that Christ has already returned and we are right now living in the 1000 year reign?

Another question is do you believe that the church will be ruptured?

What about the 144,000 from the 12 tribe's in your belief has that happened already also?

Basically I want to know what prophesy you believe has been fulfilled already, and what you think still needs to be fulfilled.

I am working on answering your questions here also, but before I answer them, I have 2 what I hope are yes/no questions for you. I certainly do not intend them as gotchas. I will answer you anyway, but your answers to my 2 questions may inform my answers



Is it a soteriological issue which one of the above a Christian believes?
Is the position on the rapture salvific?

 

[DadSmith]

I am working on answering your questions here also, but before I answer them, I have 2 what I hope are yes/no questions for you. I certainly do not intend them as gotchas. I will answer you anyway, but your answers to my 2 questions may inform my answers

View attachment 309351

Is it a soteriological issue which one of the above a Christian believes?
Is the position on the rapture salvific?

No I do not believe misunderstandings of when the rapture occurs is going to effect a person's redemption status. If that is what you are getting at. If I misunderstood your question please let me know. I surmised that this was the answer you were after.

No the rapture cannot save or redeem anyone who has not repented of their sin, and doesn't live a God pleasing life. You must be born again before the rapture takes place.
The rapture is for those who have been redeemed and as I stated above live a God pleasing life.
Does the rapture change our corruptible body into an incorruptible body? Yes.
Mortality to immortality.

I used to believe in mid-tribulation rapture, now I believe in pre tribulation rapture. Will that belief change my Salvation status? No.
I do believe that whenever it is people need to be ready to go.

 

[foszoe]

No I do not believe misunderstandings of when the rapture occurs is going to effect a person's redemption status. If that is what you are getting at. If I misunderstood your question please let me know. I surmised that this was the answer you were after.

No the rapture cannot save or redeem anyone who has not repented of their sin, and doesn't live a God pleasing life. You must be born again before the rapture takes place.
The rapture is for those who have been redeemed and as I stated above live a God pleasing life.
Does the rapture change our corruptible body into an incorruptible body? Yes.
Mortality to immortality.

I use to believe in mid-tribulation rapture, now I believe in pre tribulation rapture. Will that belief change my Salvation status? No.
I do believe that whenever it is people need to be ready to go.

Thank you DadSmith!

That is helpful for me.

 

[foszoe]

I have a couple of questions for you. I'm working on a response to your post.
Do you believe that Christ has already returned?

Jesus shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

and we are right now living in the 1000 year reign?

I am not sure if you mean the establishment of an earthly kingdom? In my previous answers, I have used the Gospels to show that Jesus did not teach an earthly kingdom.

Other than that, I guess you could say I have no real opinion on it.

Another question is do you believe that the church will be raptured?

If you mean Jesus will come 2 more times. No.

What about the 144,000 from the 12 tribe's in your belief has that happened already also?

I have no real opinion on it.

In general, I will say I don’t tend to take numbers in scripture and especially in prophetic literature literally, and I don’t see the necessity in believing the 144,000 is a literal number. Again I base this on Jesus, who said to forgive 70 times 7, but to believe that means the 491st time does not agree with the witness of scripture.

When I look at those numbers, I see 1000, but I also know God owns the cattle on a 1000 hills. I certainly don’t believe that the cattle on hills 1001 to 2000 don’t belong to God. When I see the number 12, I am reminded of the 12 tribes but also the 12 apostles. I have also used scripture to show that Christians are grafted into the root along with the Jews and that the writings of Paul and Peter identify Christians as the children of Israel.

Basically I want to know what prophesy you believe has been fulfilled already, and what you think still needs to be fulfilled.

I mentioned a hierarchy of scripture previously to guide our interpretation. Gospels, Epistles, OT. I also mentioned letting the clear passages shed the light on the unclear.

I will add another guideline. St Vincent of Lerins said “…What is believed everywhere, at all times, and by all.” What most Christians teach as rapture doctrine began in the 1800s with the Scofield Reference Bible. So it fails this test. I follow the understanding of Scripture that fits St Vincent of Lerins statement.

There is also another guideline. Our theology should be apophatic, not cataphatic. That is more in line with historical Christianity. We believe what is believed everywhere, at all times, and by all. If a novel teaching arises, we examine the teaching. If it is contradictory to that guideline, then we can say it is not to be believed. True Christianity requires very few affirmative statements. Basically this one will suffice.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.

In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

As for false doctrines, we are blessed that the 7 Ecumenical Councils have declared pretty much every heresy under the sun. Anything dogmatic has already been decided and all the heresies we encounter are a pretty much a variation of those dealt with by the early Church.

If a doctrine is clear in the Scripture, it has been clear for basically 2000 years. If someone brings to me a doctrine and claims the doctrine to be true but the doctrine is divisive, or the doctrine originated in the last 1000 years and especially in the last 400, then I will be skeptical of its veracity. The Greek word diablos means divider. Satan has been trying to divide the body of Christ for centuries and in since the 1600s has had a lot of success. He comes as an angel in light and what better way to divide the Church than to create squabbles over interpretation of the Holy Scripture itself?

Now some will say we can disagree and discuss amongst ourselves and both remain faithful Christians. I would say that is so up to a point and that point is when it divides the body of Christ. Once that happens it is no longer Christian discussion it is Christian division and a wound on the Body of Christ.

In INGO's political discussions, we often talk about how united the democratic party is compared to the Republicans. Well the Church should be united a 1000 times stronger than the democratic party.

Then we hear that the republicans are divided because they believe in standing on principles. In the Church if we are divided because of dogma and doctrine, the principles of the Church, then we no longer are serving Christ but the devil. It is a grave matter.

Trying to interpret prophetic passages in a cataphatic manner results in a lot of division. Especially the Book of Revelation. Pretty much the last book canonized and only after a compromise to also include the book of Hebrews. That alone should make us hesitant to formulate doctrines, much less dogmas, based on Revelation.

 

[foszoe]

Hey @DadSmith may I ask what church/denomination you attend so I can understand a little more about where you are coming from? It would help me tailor responses. I promise not to paint you in a box Just something I can have for reference. If nondenominational, maybe a church website? PM is fine if you don't want it on the internet.

You helped me find that gun I was looking for down in Madison once, and I haven't forgotten. Won't violate any PM privacy.

 

[DadSmith]

Jesus shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.


I am not sure if you mean the establishment of an earthly kingdom? In my previous answers, I have used the Gospels to show that Jesus did not teach an earthly kingdom.


If you mean Jesus will come 2 more times. No.

I have no real opinion on it.

In general, I will say I don’t tend to take numbers in scripture and especially in prophetic literature literally, and I don’t see the necessity in believing the 144,000 is a literal number. Again I base this on Jesus, who said to forgive 70 times 7, but to believe that means the 491st time does not agree with the witness of scripture.

When I look at those numbers, I see 1000, but I also know God owns the cattle on a 1000 hills. I certainly don’t believe that the cattle on hills 1001 to 2000 don’t belong to God. When I see the number 12, I am reminded of the 12 tribes but also the 12 apostles. I have also used scripture to show that Christians are grafted into the root along with the Jews and that the writings of Paul and Peter identify Christians as the children of Israel.


I mentioned a hierarchy of scripture previously to guide our interpretation. Gospels, Epistles, OT. I also mentioned letting the clear passages shed the light on the unclear.

I will add another guideline. St Vincent of Lerins said “…What is believed everywhere, at all times, and by all.” What most Christians teach as rapture doctrine began in the 1800s with the Scofield Reference Bible. So it fails this test. I follow the understanding of Scripture that fits St Vincent of Lerins statement.

There is also another guideline. Our theology should be apophatic, not cataphatic. That is more in line with historical Christianity. We believe what is believed everywhere, at all times, and by all. If a novel teaching arises, we examine the teaching. If it is contradictory to that guideline, then we can say it is not to be believed. True Christianity requires very few affirmative statements. Basically this one will suffice.


As for false doctrines, we are blessed that the 7 Ecumenical Councils have declared pretty much every heresy under the sun. Anything dogmatic has already been decided and all the heresies we encounter are a pretty much a variation of those dealt with by the early Church.

If a doctrine is clear in the Scripture, it has been clear for basically 2000 years. If someone brings to me a doctrine and claims the doctrine to be true but the doctrine is divisive, or the doctrine originated in the last 1000 years and especially in the last 400, then I will be skeptical of its veracity. The Greek word diablos means divider. Satan has been trying to divide the body of Christ for centuries and in since the 1600s has had a lot of success. He comes as an angel in light and what better way to divide the Church than to create squabbles over interpretation of the Holy Scripture itself?

Now some will say we can disagree and discuss amongst ourselves and both remain faithful Christians. I would say that is so up to a point and that point is when it divides the body of Christ. Once that happens it is no longer Christian discussion it is Christian division and a wound on the Body of Christ.

In INGO's political discussions, we often talk about how united the democratic party is compared to the Republicans. Well the Church should be united a 1000 times stronger than the democratic party.

Then we hear that the republicans are divided because they believe in standing on principles. In the Church if we are divided because of dogma and doctrine, the principles of the Church, then we no longer are serving Christ but the devil. It is a grave matter.

Trying to interpret prophetic passages in a cataphatic manner results in a lot of division. Especially the Book of Revelation. Pretty much the last book canonized and only after a compromise to also include the book of Hebrews. That alone should make us hesitant to formulate doctrines, much less dogmas, based on Revelation.

You do not believe in the rapture of the church.
You ignore the prophecies in Revolution which point directly to Israel a modern Israel.
Hierarchy of scripture?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So you believe that anyone that isn't baptized into your doctrine will not go to heaven correct?

Also above you said that the Hebrew word Ethos doesn't mean nation. That is a Greek word. Isaiah was in Hebrew and every literal translates say that the word used is indeed nation. Shall a nation be born at once is literally what it says.

You based almost all your opinion on one word that wasn't even in Isaiah. Ethos.

 

[DadSmith]

Hey @DadSmith may I ask what church/denomination you attend so I can understand a little more about where you are coming from? It would help me tailor responses. I promise not to paint you in a box Just something I can have for reference. If nondenominational, maybe a church website? PM is fine if you don't want it on the internet.

You helped me find that gun I was looking for down in Madison once, and I haven't forgotten. Won't violate any PM privacy.

Yep we can pm each other if you wish.

Wesleyan-Arminian theology is the doctrine I see as closest to biblical teaching/doctrine.

 

[foszoe]

You do not believe in the rapture of the church.

What I said was I don't believe Jesus will come 2 more times. If you believe that he will please provide the scriptures to support your belief.

You ignore the prophecies in Revolution which point directly to Israel a modern Israel.

What prophecies in Revelation are you referring to that you believe I am ignoring? I answered your questions in good faith even though none of them included a scriptural reference. Now you claim I am ignoring prophecies in scripture even though you cited no scripture. That is disingenuous and doesn't really support continued dialogue on the matter. I am not a mind reader and if you are interested in open dialogue then please include references.

Hierarchy of scripture?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Nothing in that quote refutes anything I have said. I will understand Paul through Jesus. I will not understand Jesus through Paul.

Even Protestants tacitly admit that. They hand out NT only perhaps with Psalms and Proverbs.

So you believe that anyone that isn't baptized into your doctrine will not go to heaven correct?

Where did I even say anything about baptism? Where did this question even come from? A charitable question would if I believed baptism into my doctrine was needed to go to heaven but you take an accusatory tone.

The answer is no. Now answer my question, why did you assume such a thing?

Also above you said that the Hebrew word Ethos doesn't mean nation. That is a Greek word. Isaiah was in Hebrew and every literal translates say that the word used is indeed nation. Shall a nation be born at once is literally what it says.

I never said that. I said the Greek word ethos. The Hebrew is goy. If you look it up you will see it does not mean nation in the same sense as a modern nation or country as you interpret it. Furthermore you will also see that the Hebrew word Goy is also translated as Gentiles. In fact you will see it happen the same passage you cited.

Isaiah 66:8 goy is translated as nation. In Isaiah 66:12 goy is translated as Gentiles. Its the same word. In other places it is translated Heathen.

Finally, the Greek version of Isaiah was translated by Jews to allow Jews in diaspora to read their own scriptures since many only read Greek not Hebrew at the time. So it was Jews who translated the word goy to ethos in the greek. That should also inform our understanding of the text.

You based almost all your opinion on one word that wasn't even in Isaiah. Ethos.

I have just shown that to be false.

But since the subject of being in the scripture has been brought up. Please provide the scripture reference containing the word Rapture.

 

[foszoe]

Yep we can pm each other if you wish.

Wesleyan-Arminian theology is the doctrine I see as closest to biblical teaching/doctrine.

we can discuss here just didn't know if you wanted to keep your background private.

I was raised in a Wesleyan-Arminian church.

 

[DadSmith]

we can discuss here just didn't know if you wanted to keep your background private.

I was raised in a Wesleyan-Arminian church.

Methodist or what is called holiness movement?

 

[foszoe]

Methodist or what is called holiness movement?

http://www.cogh.net/ is the website of the church. you would probably identify that as holiness movement. I dunno. It was definitely not Methodist in its modern form as seen in United Methodism. I do believe there are other Methodists out there like Free Methodists or something that are still more in line with the traditional teachings of Wesley.

One of the things I really admire about Wesley is he never set out to form a church, it was a reform movement within the Anglican/Episcopalian movement. A needed one in my opinion. He went about it in the right way. Then after he died his followers promptly fractured the body of Christ. That was one of the underlying currents in my earlier posts. Wesley is a major reason/influence on why I am now Orthodox. In studying Wesley one will learn that his reforms began through his study of the early Church fathers. Wesley lead me to the early church father which lead me to Orthodoxy. I firmly belief as in hold a personal opinion that Wesley would have become Orthodox had he known about the Orthodox church given enough time. His teachings align well with the spiritual experience of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I still get the cogh newsletter and have a great affection for Wesley and his theology. I have more in common with Wesleyans than any other protestant group i know of.

does your church have a website?

 

[DadSmith]

What I said was I don't believe Jesus will come 2 more times. If you believe that he will please provide the scriptures to support your belief.

I worded that wrong. He's only coming back to rule so second coming in that respect.
However, he's coming in the clouds to take the church with him, and what it looks like before the tribulation or wrath of God is poured out.

What prophecies in Revelation are you referring to that you believe I am ignoring? I answered your questions in good faith even though none of them included a scriptural reference. Now you claim I am ignoring prophecies in scripture even though you cited no scripture. That is disingenuous and doesn't really support continued dialogue on the matter. I am not a mind reader and if you are interested in open dialogue then please include references.

Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Revelation 14:1 NKJV
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

The sealing of the 144,000 comes after the 6th seal is broken.
These are of 12 tribes of Israel.

My understanding you do not believe the modern Israeli are real Jews or the chosen people is what I gather from your posts.
If that is the case how do you explain this prophesy that definitely has not been fulfilled?

Nothing in that quote refutes anything I have said. I will understand Paul through Jesus. I will not understand Jesus through Paul.

You seen to think that some scripture is better than others according to this all scripture is good.

Even Protestants tacidly admit that. They hand out NT only perhaps with Psalms and Proverbs.

I read old covenant as well as the new covenant. So do about everyone I know. Old covenant is taught in Sunday school, and preached from.

Where did I even say anything about baptism? Where did this question even come from? A charitable question would if I believed baptism into my doctrine was needed to go to heaven but you take an accusatory tone. The answer is no. Now answer my question, why did you assume such a thing?

From what you posted is your belief. "In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." Sounds like only your doctrine is the only one.

I never said that. I said the Greek word ethos. The Hebrew is goy. If you look it up you will see it does not mean nation in the same sense as a modern nation or country as you interpret it. Furthermore you will also see that the Hebrew word Goy is also translated as Gentiles. In fact you will see it happen the same passage you cited.

Isaiah 66:8 goy is translated as nation. In Isaiah 66:12 goy is translated as Gentiles. Its the same word. In other places it is translated Heathen.

Finally, the Greek version of Isaiah was translated by Jews to allow Jews in diaspora to read their own scriptures since many only read Greek not Hebrew at the time. So it was Jews who translated the word goy to ethos in the greek. That should also inform our understanding of the text.


I have just shown that to be false.

But since the subject of being in the scripture has been brought up. Please provide the scripture reference containing the word Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 NKJV
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. [2] For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [3] For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

John 14:3 NKJV
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Mark 13:32-33 NKJV
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. [33] Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

Revelation 3:10 NKJV
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Daniel 12:1-2 NKJV
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 NKJV
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Luke 17:34-36 NKJV
I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [35] Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [36] Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

Where I rapture mentioned in the Bible? Right here.
The Greek word from this term “rapture” is harpazo which means to snatch or take away.
The Latin translation is rapturo it means caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NKJV
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[DadSmith]

http://www.cogh.net/ is the website of the church. you would probably identify that as holiness movement. I dunno. It was definitely not Methodist in its modern form as seen in United Methodism. I do believe there are other Methodists out there like Free Methodists or something that are still more in line with the traditional teachings of Wesley.

One of the things I really admire about Wesley is he never set out to form a church, it was a reform movement within the Anglican/Episcopalian movement. A needed one in my opinion. He went about it in the right way. Then after he died his followers promptly fractured the body of Christ. That was one of the underlying currents in my earlier posts. Wesley is a major reason/influence on why I am now Orthodox. In studying Wesley one will learn that his reforms began through his study of the early Church fathers. Wesley lead me to the early church father which lead me to Orthodoxy. I firmly belief as in hold a personal opinion that Wesley would have become Orthodox had he known about the Orthodox church given enough time. His teachings align well with the spiritual experience of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I still get the cogh newsletter and have a great affection for Wesley and his theology. I have more in common with Wesleyans than any other protestant group i know of.

does your church have a website?

I have been going to several different churches because I like the people. I'll see if one of them has a website. It's actually around four different churches in my area.
The main one I've been helping out mostly doesn't have a website.

 

[foszoe]

I worded that wrong. He's only coming back to rule so second coming in that respect.
However, he's coming in the clouds to take the church with him, and what it looks like before the tribulation or wrath of God is poured out.

Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Revelation 14:1 NKJV
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

The sealing of the 144,000 comes after the 6th seal is broken.
These are of 12 tribes of Israel.

My understanding you do not believe the modern Israeli are real Jews or the chosen people is what I gather from your posts.
If that is the case how do you explain this prophesy that definitely has not been fulfilled?


You seen to think that some scripture is better than others according to this all scripture is good.


I read old covenant as well as the new covenant. So do about everyone I know. Old covenant is taught in Sunday school, and preached from.

From what you posted is your belief. "In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." Sounds like only your doctrine is the only one.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 NKJV
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. [2] For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [3] For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

John 14:3 NKJV
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Mark 13:32-33 NKJV
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. [33] Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

Revelation 3:10 NKJV
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Daniel 12:1-2 NKJV
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 NKJV
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Luke 17:34-36 NKJV
I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [35] Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [36] Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

Where I rapture mentioned in the Bible? Right here.
The Greek word from this term “rapture” is harpazo which means to snatch or take away.
The Latin translation is rapturo it means caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NKJV
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

 

[DadSmith]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

I was afraid I couldn't figure out how you did it (respond to each issue). Luckily experimenting worked and I was able to.