Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[DadSmith]

This thought has crossed my mind...

I the state of Israel the legitimate Israel, the country of God's chosen people? I ask because the current state celebrates LGBT stuff and supports abortion (among other things). These types of things by kings of the Old Testament got Israel judgement from God. They were driven out of the land for it.

One just has to look at the prophecies about Israel's return to know the answer to this question.

After 2,000 years of exile, the Jewish people have once again returned to the Land of Israel.
Ask any Muslim if they are Jews or not they even know. That is prophecy.
Ezekiel chapter 36 prophecies this.
Ezekiel 37 I believe is talking about the Nazi concentration camps. Remember those pictures? They had lost hope and were as dead, if you looked into their eyes on those horrible pictures. This is my opinion only.
Right after WWII Jews felt lead to go back to the land they had been away from for over 2000 years.
Jeremiah chapter 16
Zachariah chapter 14


They all now speak Hebrew which was not spoken by a nation in around 2000 years.
Zephaniah Chapter 3


The tribulation is about punishing Israel for its unbelief and they will eventually accept Christ toward the end. That is biblical prophecy.
Zechariah Chapters 12 and 13 show that they will eventually turn to the Messiah that they refused all these years.

There is more, this is off the top of my head without going and researching everything out.

To much Bible prophecy being fulfilled to ignore that they are the Jews IMO.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

One just has to look at the prophecies about Israel's return to know the answer to this question.

After 2,000 years of exile, the Jewish people have once again returned to the Land of Israel.
Ask any Muslim if they are Jews or not they even know. That is prophecy.
Ezekiel chapter 36 prophecies this.
Ezekiel 37 I believe is talking about the Nazi concentration camps. Remember those pictures? They had lost hope and were as dead, if you looked into their eyes on those horrible pictures. This is my opinion only.
Right after WWII Jews felt lead to go back to the land they had been away from for over 2000 years.
Jeremiah chapter 16
Zachariah chapter 14


They all now speak Hebrew which was not spoken by a nation in around 2000 years.
Zephaniah Chapter 3


The tribulation is about punishing Israel for its unbelief and they will eventually accept Christ toward the end. That is biblical prophecy.
Zechariah Chapters 12 and 13 show that they will eventually turn to the Messiah that they refused all these years.

There is more, this is off the top of my head without going and researching everything out.

To much Bible prophecy being fulfilled to ignore that they are the Jews IMO.

I'm not saying they are Jews. They are, at least culturally, most of them. I'm not sure how many are practicing Jews but I have to believe if they were the majority the nation would more resemble more the time of David than the time of Ahab.

 

[foszoe]

This thought has crossed my mind...

I the state of Israel the legitimate Israel, the country of God's chosen people? I ask because the current state celebrates LGBT stuff and supports abortion (among other things). These types of things by kings of the Old Testament got Israel judgement from God. They were driven out of the land for it.

The quick answer is no, GTFT.

I can say more later, but the fulfillment of the OT Israel is the NT church.

 

[DadSmith]

I'm not saying they are Jews. They are, at least culturally, most of them. I'm not sure how many are practicing Jews but I have to believe if they were the majority the nation would more resemble more the time of David than the time of Ahab.

Israel is a mix of secular and religious probably about the same percentage as here in the US.
Like most leftist that's about all you hear about here as well as there.

Things you don't see on mainstream media.
This is 2023 at the Western wall.
Thousands by wall, and thousands more behind them.

 

[phylodog]

The quick answer is no, GTFT.

I can say more later, but the fulfillment of the OT Israel is the NT church.

I've heard that for the first time recently and hope to learn more in the near future.

 

[HoughMade]

This thought has crossed my mind...

I the state of Israel the legitimate Israel, the country of God's chosen people? I ask because the current state celebrates LGBT stuff and supports abortion (among other things). These types of things by kings of the Old Testament got Israel judgement from God. They were driven out of the land for it.

Look at the rebellion detailed in Exodos, Numbers and throughout the Old Testament right up to the Babylonian Captivity. These were undoubtedly true Israelites as they were, literally, the descendants of Israel (Jacob). Yet, they rebelled, worshiped other Gods, even Moloch, and took on pagan practices. They were punished for these things but never stopped being God's chosen people even through their rebellion.

I say all that to say this, that a people are not following God cannot lead to a conclusion that they are not the chosen people. That's what the Israelites have done from nearly the beginning....which is what make redemption and a the final, permanent Redeemer so necessary.

They were "chosen" to show the world what being one of God's people can be like and to bring forth the Savior...but like all of us, they frequently failed. However, God will not forget them. We know geographically where the Land is and modern Israel is on a portion of that. I'll trust that God can figure out who his chosen people are beyond that.

 

[DadSmith]

The quick answer is no, GTFT.

I can say more later, but the fulfillment of the OT Israel is the NT church.

If you are talking about Replacement theology that is false doctrine and isn't biblical.

Romans Chapter 11

 

[foszoe]

If you are talking about Replacement theology that is false doctrine and isn't biblical.

Romans Chapter 11

Don't know what Replacement theology is

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm not saying they are Jews. They are, at least culturally, most of them. I'm not sure how many are practicing Jews but I have to believe if they were the majority the nation would more resemble more the time of David than the time of Ahab.

I meant to say I'm not saying they are not Jews.

(I hate it when I read faster than I type).

 

[foszoe]

If you are talking about Replacement theology that is false doctrine and isn't biblical.

Romans Chapter 11

To make it clearer for me to understand.

Do you believe that Israel is a chosen country or people?

By that I mean, do you believe that our country will be blessed by God for giving military aid to the country of Israel, by being an ally of the country of Israel, by fighting alongside the country of Israel against her enemies?

 

[DadSmith]

To make it clearer for me to understand.

Do you believe that Israel is a chosen country or people?

By that I mean, do you believe that our country will be blessed by God for giving military aid to the country of Israel, by being an ally of the country of Israel, by fighting alongside the country of Israel against her enemies?

Genesis 12:3 NKJV
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

It's stated right here. Christ is who God was talking about and how all will be blessed. Christ or the Messiah came through Israel's seed.

What would you call a blessing toward Israel?
Would Jehovah agree with you?
I use the name Jehovah so people understand which God I'm referring too.

 

[foszoe]

Genesis 12:3 NKJV
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

It's stated right here. Christ is who God was talking about and how all will be blessed. Christ or the Messiah came through Israel's seed.

What would you call a blessing toward Israel?
Would Jehovah agree with you?
I use the name Jehovah so people understand which God I'm referring too.

I an an Orthodox Christian. It makes it much easier for people to look up what I believe. With Protestants, it's not so easy.

It's definitely not as easy as quoting Bible verses for I can find other Protestants who will yake the same verses and come to quite different conclusions. Free will vs predestination.

So while I believe you are sincere, if you are only going to answer my questions with Bible quotes and questions for me, then I don't believe we can dialog properly.

I asked what you believe based on your interpretation of the Bible.

You are well read and studied on the Bible and I am certain you are aware of the interpretations I asked about. There are bookshelves in Bible stores dedicated to the subject. Have you seen or read any of them?

 

[DadSmith]

I an an Orthodox Christian. It makes it much easier for people to look up what I believe. With Protestants, it's not so easy.

It's definitely not as easy as quoting Bible verses for I can find other Protestants who will yake the same verses and come to quite different conclusions. Free will vs predestination.

So while I believe you are sincere, if you are only going to answer my questions with Bible quotes and questions for me, then I don't believe we can dialog properly.

I asked what you believe based on your interpretation of the Bible.

You are well read and studied on the Bible and I am certain you are aware of the interpretations I asked about. There are bookshelves in Bible stores dedicated to the subject. Have you seen or read any of them?

I believe the moment this country fails to bless Israel will be its downfall since the other half of the country figuratively speaking wants to curse Israel.

My answer will always be from the Bible on these issues.

If your doctrine is of predestination then we definitely won't see eye to eye, because again that doctrine isn't biblical.
Paul said if anyone teaches anything other than what he taught it's a false doctrine.

 

[foszoe]

Paul said if anyone teaches anything other than what he taught it's a false doctrine.

Does this apply to Jewish Rabbis?

 

[DadSmith]

Does this apply to Jewish Rabbis?

Of course it does if they are not teaching the doctrine laid out by Paul.

Read Romans Chapter 11 in Whatever translation you like, and let me know if you still feel the way you do.

 

[foszoe]

Of course it does if they are not teaching the doctrine laid out by Paul.

Read Romans Chapter 11 in Whatever translation you like, and let me know if you still feel the way you do.

I still believe what I believe. That may not be what you think it is though.

Anyway, as I said not enough time to properly discuss.may not for over a week, but if someone is truly interested, I will put in the time to flesh it out.

 

[Cameramonkey]

How do you really live for God?

I'm there with ya, brother. I too have a foul mouth and dont live as I should. I'm flawed just like you.

Start small. Donate what money you can to the church. Tithing (10%) is great, but not everyone can do that. Do what you can. The widow's mite (Luke 21: 1-4) speaks of this. (I had to look it up, dont be impressed LOL)

Volunteer your time and talents to the church. Do what you can to glorify God. It doesnt have to be big sweeping gestures. Help clean up the sanctuary after the service. (communion cups, discarded bulletins, etc) Volunteer to be an usher/greeter Sunday AM. Are you handy? Become a trustee and use your hands to help the church. I dont know how many thousands of dollars I have saved our church doing little things like replacing leaky faucets, helping to cut the grass, etc.

Its not much but its a start, and is easy to do. Pretty soon you will find other ways to share your beliefs, help bring others to Christ, etc. Do what you can, no matter how little you think it is.

 

[Lost Californian]

I'm there with ya, brother. I too have a foul mouth and dont live as I should. I'm flawed just like you.

Start small. Donate what money you can to the church. Tithing (10%) is great, but not everyone can do that. Do what you can. The widow's mite (Luke 21: 1-4) speaks of this. (I had to look it up, dont be impressed LOL)

Volunteer your time and talents to the church. Do what you can to glorify God. It doesnt have to be big sweeping gestures. Help clean up the sanctuary after the service. (communion cups, discarded bulletins, etc) Volunteer to be an usher/greeter Sunday AM. Are you handy? Become a trustee and use your hands to help the church. I dont know how many thousands of dollars I have saved our church doing little things like replacing leaky faucets, helping to cut the grass, etc.

Its not much but its a start, and is easy to do. Pretty soon you will find other ways to share your beliefs, help bring others to Christ, etc. Do what you can, no matter how little you think it is.

Thanks for the encouragement. To me, tithing is a vow to God. As is written, better to not vow, than to vow and break the vow. I made that vow about 20 years ago, and have continued to keep it no matter what. All the rest you said, I have done and am willing to do more of the same.

Right now, the hard part is glorifying God in our current circumstances. On Monday, at the doctor's office, my wife stopped taking all the antibiotics she has been on for the last month or so. The whole health story is long and tedious, short version is COPD, lung cancer survivor, brain tumor/cancer survivor, and living with pulmonary fibrosis, chronic pneumonia, mold and fungus in right lung. All the drugs made her a "zombie vegetable", alive but not living. We believe there is more to life and living than a just heart beat and brain activity. We agreed on dropping all the meds, and the doctor even said there is no way she could survive the 9 month treatment plan. James 5:14-15 has been on my mind for two days, and today I asked for the "elders" to come and anoint my wife, and pray over her. Later, James 5:11 was shown to me, as words of encouragement for both of us.

I am still struggling with "intentional sin" versus "unintentional sin" in my life. With the power of the Holy Spirit and God's grace, I have made some improvements in that regard.

Thanks for reading and responding.

 

[45sRfun]

The quick answer is no, GTFT.

I can say more later, but the fulfillment of the OT Israel is the NT church.

Effectively, God divorced the Old Covenant bride for spirtual adultery. The OT punishment for adultery being stoning to death, as happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. The tribulation was approximately the last 3.5 years of Nero, who also is the six-hundred-sixty-six. The book of Revelation could be called The Great Divorce but for C.S. Lewis having used that title for one of his books. The new bride comes in at the end of Revelation and is the New Covenant church. There is only one unfulfilled prophecy--the final return of Jesus at the end of this world.

 

[foszoe]

I still believe what I believe. That may not be what you think it is though.

Anyway, as I said not enough time to properly discuss.may not for over a week, but if someone is truly interested, I will put in the time to flesh it out.

Taking a step back from Israel specifically for a moment. When it comes to the Bible, there are certain ways it should be understood. In some circles you will hear phrases like let the clear passages inform the unclear is to be understood. So how should we approach the bible?

The bible is salvation history. There is an established hierarchy in the bible.

The Old Testament is Fulfilled in the New and should be read in light of the New Testament. The Epistles should be read in light of the Gospels, the Gospels. In other words, when it comes to understanding the bible, the Gospels inform the interpretation of the Epistles, the Gospels and the Epistles inform the interpretation of the Old Testament.

False doctrines can and will result if we begin to take scriptures in isolation or if we begin to interpret the New Testament through the old. So we must be careful in our approach.

We see this happen when Paul’s writings are elevated above the Gospels.

So what does Jesus say?

We often see Jesus in conflict with the Jewish leadership. I would say that Jesus was in conflict with the Jewish leadership and not the Jewish people. This point should be stressed because failing to realize it has given rise to anti-Semitism in the past by misapplication to the Jewish people.

The second thing we should know is that Jesus often speaks in parables and that when we are reading a parable it is first and foremost about the Kingdom.

Mark 12:1-13

Then He began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated. 5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some. 6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 “Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. 10 Have you not even read this Scripture: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 11 This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?” 12 And they sought to lay hands on Him, but feared the multitude, for they knew He had spoken the parable against them. So they left Him and went away.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Mk 12:1–12.



We again see Jesus in conflict with the Pharisee’s, the Jewish leadership, not the people as is evidenced by Mark 12:12

I am sure you are familiar with the parable. So we know that the vinedressers will be destroyed and the vineyard given to others.

This parable does not stand in isolation. Those listening to Jesus, especially the leadership, we can surmise, are calling to mind Isaiah 5:1-7.

Isaiah 5:7 tells us who the vineyard, the house of Israel.

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Is 5:7.

So now we know the vineyard in the OT passage is the house of Israel. We also know that Jesus says the vineyard will be given to others. So who is the house of Israel? I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). In the OT we know this meant physical descendants of Jacob. So what does the NT tell us about who are in the house of Israel?

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ga 3:7–9.

Those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. Blessing and a Plea 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ga 6:14–18.

Circumcision nor circumcision avails nothing but boast only in the Cross of Christ. Peace and mercy upon the Israel of God.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Pe 2:9–10.

So is the Kingdom of God an earthly kingdom?





John 18:36-37

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” 37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

So moving to Romans 11. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. So we should not understand Paul to be speaking of an earthly kingdom.

We then see talk of roots and branches. In biblical times to the Jewish mind, the Patriarch’s were the roots. For us, Jesus is the root. All of humanity are branches. That means Jews and Gentiles. Any branch can be broken off and others grafted in, but that includes all of us so no branch is superior to another branch we all must produce fruit.

So what are we to make about prophecies which deal with a restoration of Israel? We know Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. We know that Isaiah 11:11 speaks of recovering of the remnant of his peoples and Jeremiah 16:15 speaks of gathering “back into their land which I gave to their fathers”. Micah 12:12 also speaks of “gathering the remnant of Israel”

We look to Ezra.

Ezra 1:1 (NKJV): 1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ezr 1:1.

Those prophecies were fulfilled after the Babylonian exile.

So we can conclude that the people of Israel are not a country or government.

Equating the modern day country of Israel to the people of Israel is an exegetical mistake.

Could say more but this is already probably so long it won’t get read anyway