You already answered your question, the Circle Center. You can go with your firearm, but if you are discovered you will be asked to leave. This would be my argument. Assuming I'm discovered carrying a firearm, the "rule" violates state law. One cannot be simply be asked to leave based on the legal carry of a firearm.Assuming you refuse to leave, and you're willing to be a test case, I'll put $500 down on your legal defense fund. And that's an honest offer. I'll even let you have the money before you do it. But if you lose, I'll expect the money back.
Deal?
............. I know Circle Center doesn't want to be seen as an ugly building overrun by thugs.
Too late.
Terry would only apply if they were on-duty as an officer and not simply as an employee of Circle Center unless I misunderstand.Don't confuse PC with RS. Gangs detectives are looking for bangers. They are not hard to pic out based on colors, tats, etc. Terry requires only RS. When a detectives gets a group of bangers it is reasonable to believe that one or more COULD be armed. A Terry frisk is OK so a wanding will be as well.
Terry would only apply if they were on-duty as an officer and not simply as an employee of Circle Center unless I misunderstand.
I'd probably ask the officer if they were on duty - if yes, I show my LTCH and move on. If no, I would simply refuse their 'selective' search and be on my way.
That is... If I ever wanted to go to Circle Center which I have no desire to do so.
Even if they are paid by the mall, they are in full police uniform with full LE powers. Powers don't change depending on our duty status. I like that mall, I am not usually there on Sat evenings. Most of the problems don't happen inside the mall but right outside after they are pushed out.
Don't confuse PC with RS. Gangs detectives are looking for bangers. They are not hard to pic out based on colors, tats, etc. Terry requires only RS. When a detectives gets a group of bangers it is reasonable to believe that one or more COULD be armed. A Terry frisk is OK so a wanding will be as well.
If they're paid by the mall as security, they're not LE. They're agents of the employer and have the same powers the employer would have.
If they're just wandering through the mall off-duty, then they're off-duty LE.
Gotta be one or the other.
The Mall doesn't need any RS or PC to wand or search. It's private property and they can require you consent to any kind of search to enter. Whether they have any reason or not.
Kind of like the TSA, but big business instead of big government.
But the issue is - are they acting as an agent of the mall, or as an agent of the department when they stop you to 'randomly' check you out.Even if they are paid by the mall, they are in full police uniform with full LE powers. Powers don't change depending on our duty status. I like that mall, I am not usually there on Sat evenings. Most of the problems don't happen inside the mall but right outside after they are pushed out.
Here is what I don't get. I've visited CC several times and on more than one occassion my girls have been stopped and havebeen asked where are your parents? They have been stopped from entering. I'm usually a few feet away. My girls have also been stopped because they don't look their age. I think there are sighs posted with regards to minor being supervised but dont know this as a fact.
Most of the problems don't happen inside the mall but right outside after they are pushed out.
No, I retain 100% LEO powers off-duty. Your OPINION might be that we lose LEO powers working off-duty but we do not. I can wander off-duty in the mall and arrest someone if warranted.If they're paid by the mall as security, they're not LE. They're agents of the employer and have the same powers the employer would have.
If they're just wandering through the mall off-duty, then they're off-duty LE.
Gotta be one or the other.
But the issue is - are they acting as an agent of the mall, or as an agent of the department when they stop you to 'randomly' check you out.
How could they possibly be both at the same time? I'm not a lawyer but it just feels like there is something wrong with the whole idea/situation.
They are not "randomly" stopping people. We are looking for gangbangers and once we identify them we have RS for a terry stop/patdown. Wanding is a more efficient method. We know our jobs even if the news doesn't.