Christians lets discuss something....

[Fletch]

I'm of the opinion that much of what is preached over the Book of Revelations completely misses the point of Christianity.

Can you explain?

Probably not, but I'll give it a whirl.

I don't believe it's appropriate to attempt to map the Book of Revelation to current events. I don't believe it's appropriate to attempt to predict the hour of Christ's return. I don't believe it's appropriate to spend any time playing guessing games with God's plan for the world. I believe we are here to be Jesus' hands and feet, and continue doing the work He started -- healing the sick, reaching out to the poor, advocating for those on the fringes of society (eg, criminals, sex offenders, and so forth).

I have a fair number of relatives who are absolutely obsessed with the End Times. I see no indication that this helps them in their Christian walk, or does anything positive for their efforts to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the present. I see a fair number of indicators that it is in fact a detriment.

I've read the literature forwarded to me by various people. I find the arguments of the postmillennialists just as convincing as those of the premillennialists. I see nothing whatsoever that encourages us to love all and serve all, and a whole lot of stuff that aims to scare us into "getting our hearts right with God". Apparently this means sending money to the folks printing the literature.

I've read Revelation a number of times. I don't find it helpful, as I do most other books, especially James.

 

[flightsimmer]

am I in fact decieved and therefore one of the antichrists?

You cannot be antichrist if you have truly accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and been baptized for the remission of sins, which is an outward symbol of an inner work in your life. You will be saved according to Gods word. But don't stop there, go on to sanctification which is the second work of Gods grace in your life by inviting him into your life.
Gal 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
KJV

The Bible says that satan believes in God, but he will not be saved because he will not and cannot accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[flightsimmer]

I've read Revelation a number of times. I don't find it helpful, as I do most other books,

Revelation uses symbols that were familiar to people of the early church. Once you understand the symbols as explained in Revelation itself and with the help of the Holy Spirit you will be able to understand it.
Matt 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
KJV

 

[jblomenberg16]

am I in fact decieved and therefore one of the antichrists?

You cannot be antichrist if you have truly accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and been baptized for the remission of sins, which is an outward symbol of an inner work in your life. You will be saved according to Gods word. But don't stop there, go on to sanctification which is the second work of Gods grace in your life by inviting him into your life.
Gal 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
KJV

The Bible says that satan believes in God, but he will not be saved because he will not and cannot accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

You're response clears things up for me. For a minute I was getting worried that perhaps we were coming from way different sides of this one. Thanks!

Getting back to the topic at hand, re Revelation and its potential predictions. There are some excellent posts that are allowing each of us to really examine our faith and beliefs.

Remember that as I posted earlier, it is very clear that "we will not know the day or hour" when Christ will come again, and shouldn't be trying to predict it. Rather, we should be doing His work hear on earth to ensure others have come to faith in Him, so that when He does return, he can welcome them into Eternal Life.

This doesn't prevent us from reading the Bible, or from studying passages in Revelation to see how they might apply in our lives today. We just must be careful to not be so consumed in it that we miss the bigger calling.

 

[jontheturboguy]

I spoke with a long time friend and pastor last night about all of this.

He stated that the 7 beasts that rise up out of the sea would be 7 kingdoms what would go against Israel to destroy her, and the 10 horns would be the 10 countries that surround her to destroy her.

So far, there have been 7 (I think this is what he said) kingdoms that have risen and fallen to attempt to squash Israel.

He was speak about the 7th or 10th? week of Daniel (I have to do some research). Pastor was trying to explain that when this week happens, that the 8th kingdom will rise up to attempt to destroy Israel.

At this time, she (Israel) will sign a peace treaty with all of her sister nations. The anti-christ will then make his/her appearance and give authority to these sister nations against Israel.

Israel will build her temple, warship God, and then..... then all hell breaks loose.

The anti-christ will desecrate the temple, and declare himself/herself God.

I need to do some more studying..... thank you all for your replies! Church online - with GUNS. Love it! :-)

 

[indytechnerd]

Endtime Ministries - Teaching Biblical Christianity

Irvin Baxter (Jr.), who was a paster in Richmond, IN for a long time, runs this site and the ministry associated with it. We've been listening to them for quite a while. He's got some good ideas about the endtimes and tribulation. Having read the "Left Behind" series and the studies that were done surrounding it, Endtime is better.

 

[flightsimmer]

He stated that the 7 beasts that rise up out of the sea would be 7 kingdoms what would go against Israel to destroy her, and the 10 horns would be the 10 countries that surround her to destroy her.

Remember, keep it in the context of Gods church (singular), not the world.
Israel, the country (the Jews as a whole nation) rejected Jesus as the Son of God although many individuals did except Him. Jesus was the cornerstone (which the builders rejected) and their country was left unto them desolate.
The country of Israel no longer holds any special place in the Word of God.
Revelation is speaking of the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Zion and the spiritual Jerusalem. "The nations of the world would go against Israel to destroy Her". The people of the earth would go against Gods church to destroy Her even as they already are and will continue untill they surround Her in the spiritual battle of Armageddon (even now) at which time Gods trump will sound and time will be no more and we will all be caught up before the Judgement bar of God in the twinkling of an eye.
You can escape the Judgement by bowing your heart before God at an alter of your local congregation. The alter is the judgement bar of God where your sins can be forgiven and you will be saved. Bow not, and you are judged already.
You do not have to make a choice for hell, that choice has already been made for you, you are condemed already but you can change that by choosing to serve God instead.

 

[edsinger]

These things concerned only the church (group of followers) that Jesus gave his life for when he died upon the cross for our sins. It is not intended to be a prophesy of things to come in world history, only the things that concern His church that were to come.

Well I humbly disagree on this one, its states the NATIONS will come to honor him. I firmly believe that it is 'concealed' until its time that the Spirit wants it explained. The letters to the 7 Church's, was this just the 7 Church's of Turkey or was is 'representative' of all then and future?

The beast and the false prophet that were mentioned are the soon (at that time) to be coming Roman Catholic church, the great whore and that false prophet, Protestantism, that would deceive many. The Pope is not the Vicar of the Son of God, he is as much a sinner as anyone who is not saved.

Well so Martin Luther said also but, Antichrist is a misnomer, its a Greek word. In Hebrew it plainly means "False Messiah". In no way have the Jews accepted one yet.....still future. There where many false Christs and I guess false Messiahs, but not to the scale that Biblical Prophecy speaks of in my opinion.

This simply means that there are many Antichrist and more will come in an attempt to corrupt and destroy the chuch of God but they will not prevail.If you are not for Christ then you are antichrist. It's just that simple. No mystery here.

Really? So you feel that it represents all against Christ, and yet I read it as an single individual. Sure many false ones will come, but the key is what the Jews are still looking for, its a single person, hence the capital A in Greek.

"The two witnesses" are the Bible (the word of God) and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Nope, they will not die! the Bible plainly states they will die and lay in the streets being mocked for 3 days. The Word and Holy Spirit can not die.


Great thread topic by the way,

I mean no ill to anyone, I just love this subject.....

 

[edsinger]

I think this thread is going in a good direction, so don't want to derail.

As a Protestant (Lutheran, so really the original Protestant denomination), am I in fact decieved and therefore one of the antichrists? And if so, what is my fate?.

Well I to am a Lutheran, but have issues with the teachings, they teach part but not all as it tends to loose members. Hell is a concept that is purely Greek in nature per se, but the Bible talks of it, The Lutheran Church does not, or at least the different versions of it. Its a membership thing.

Or am I an heir to eternal life, because of the simple facts stated so clearly in John 3:16, and the fact that I have been baptized and believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior - making me a Christian.

You are fine no matter what ANYONE tells you, God knows your heart. Its when the deception arrives that you must ask yourself, can you hold on? You did not choose God, He chose you. Its hard to understand, but it is fact.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Well I to am a Lutheran, but have issues with the teachings, they teach part but not all as it tends to loose members. Hell is a concept that is purely Greek in nature per se, but the Bible talks of it, The Lutheran Church does not, or at least the different versions of it. Its a membership thing.

Just to make sure I'm hearing you correctly...the Lutheran Church does not teach about Hell?

It most certainly does!! My father is a Lutheran Pastor, and I can tell you first hand of many sermons, bible studies, and Sunday School Lessons that certainly clearly teach that the wages of sin is death (= eternal damnation in Hell), those that are not saved by their faith in Christ will go to Hell for eternity, and that as we confess boldly in both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds: "Jesus was crucified....decended into Hell...and on the 3rd day raised from the dead."

Perhaps the congregation you are at avoids it to help retain membership? PM me if you want to discuss 1:1.

 

[edsinger]

Remember, keep it in the context of Gods church (singular), not the world.Israel, the country (the Jews as a whole nation) rejected Jesus as the Son of God although many individuals did except Him.

But He tells us he shall gather her from all the nations and bring them home. This has happened just as prophesied 2000 years ago. Israel still plays a role in the end times, as a matter of fact, it is they that shall sigh and proclaim "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". God does not change nor modify Covenants, he adds new ones but does not negate the previous ones.

Jesus was the cornerstone (which the builders rejected) and their country was left unto them desolate.The country of Israel no longer holds any special place in the Word of God.

Israel is STILL part of Prophecy, they shall play the KEY role...remember they still yearn for Messiah......

Revelation is speaking of the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Zion and the spiritual Jerusalem. "The nations of the world would go against Israel to destroy Her". The people of the earth would go against Gods church to destroy Her even as they already are and will continue until they surround Her in the spiritual battle of Armageddon (even now) at which time Gods trump will sound and time will be no more and we will all be caught up before the Judgement bar of God in the twinkling of an eye.

Armageddon is not the Hebrew term, its Meddigo, the valley that is. This will not be a spiritual battle per se, it will be a physical one also (see Ezekiel and Daniel). It all fits into a puzzle or shall I say parable. They do intertwine and can we know the exact answer? No . Can we know the time? No. But we can and are actually commanded to know the 'season'.

You can escape the Judgement by bowing your heart before God at an alter of your local congregation. The alter is the judgement bar of God where your sins can be forgiven and you will be saved. Bow not, and you are judged already.

We shall all be judged, that can not be taken away. It is the price of that judgment that has already been paid.

You do not have to make a choice for hell, that choice has already been made for you, you are condemed already but you can change that by choosing to serve God instead.

Yes, belief...that is all it takes. That belief though is that He came and paid the price of your rebellion against God for you. Its Gods love and Grace that saves you... for you are saved by Grace Alone!

 

[edsinger]

Just to make sure I'm hearing you correctly...the Lutheran Church does not teach about Hell?

It most certainly does!! My father is a Lutheran Pastor, and I can tell you first hand of many sermons, bible studies, and Sunday School Lessons that certainly clearly teach that the wages of sin is death (= eternal damnation in Hell), those that are not saved by their faith in Christ will go to Hell for eternity, and that as we confess boldly in both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds: "Jesus was crucified....decended into Hell...and on the 3rd day raised from the dead."

Perhaps the congregation you are at avoids it to help retain membership? PM me if you want to discuss 1:1.

Oh they do in a way but, and a big but at that. Which one do they teach?

Sheol? Hades? Gehenna? Tatarus? Abyss?

These 5 words have different meanings. And yet the writers of the Bible chose to use them seperatly in differing context? Why?

Hell is in our English Bibles used in place of all 5 of these and you loose meaning when that is done.

Here are some examples,

Tartarus The term "Tartarus" is found only once in the Bible, at 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment." It would seem to be a synonym of the "Abyss". In Luke 8:31, the Legion of demons begs Jesus not to send them to the Abyss. "The Beast" of Revelation, will come up out of the Abyss (Revelation 11:7; 17:8). Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years (Revelation 20:3).
The term "Hades" appears in the religious texts of New Testament times as a translation of the Old TestamentSheol.
In most English Bibles, the word Tartarus is simply translated as Hell, even though early Christian writers usually used the term Gehenna, the Hinnom Valley, to mean hell. In some sense, this dark place matches the term's traditional meaning, a dark pit in which the Supreme God has cast his spirit enemies. However, it is separate from the Lake of Fire, which is the place of eternal fiery punishment that most people think of when they think of "Hell". This is evidenced in Revelation 20, where Satan is released from the Abyss (v. 3) and later thrown in the "Lake of Burning Sulfur" (v. 10), where he will be "tormented day and night forever and ever".

Gehenna
Gehenna is cited in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the final place where the wicked will be punished or destroyed after resurrection. It lends its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam. In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a destination of the wicked is different from Sheol or Hades, the abode of the dead.

HadesLike other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. Thus, in Acts 2:27, the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 16:10 appears in the form: "you will not abandon my soul to Hades." Death and Hades are repeatedly associated in the Book of Revelation.[15]

Sheol
(pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1], in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", or "pit".[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.
By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave.
Anglicans, who do not share a concept of "hades" with the Eastern Orthodox, have traditionally translated "sheol" (and "hades") as "hell" (for example in the King James Version). However, to avoid confusion of what are separate concepts in the Bible, modern English versions of the Bible tend either to transliterate the word sheol or to use an alternative term such as the "grave" (e.g. the NIV). Roman Catholics generally translate "sheol" as "death."

Abyss
In biblical literature, abyss refers to a bottomless pit; to the underworld; to the deepest ocean floor; or to hell.
The English word "abyss" derives from the late Latin abyssimus (superlative of abyssus) through French abisme (abîme in modern French), hence the poetic form "abysm", with examples dating to 1616 and earlier to rhyme with "time". The Latin word is borrowed from the Greek abussos (also transliterated as abyssos), which is conventionally analyzed as deriving from the Greek element meaning "deep, bottom" with an alpha privative, hence "bottomless."[1]
In the Septuagint, or Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, the word represents both the original chaos (Genesis 1:2) and the Hebrew tehom ("a surging water-deep"), which is used also in apocalyptic and kabbalistic literature and in the New Testament for hell; the place of punishment; in the Revised (not the Authorized) version of the Bible "abyss" is generally used for this idea. Primarily in the Septuagintcosmography the word is applied both to the waters under the earth which originally covered it, and from which the springs and rivers are supplied and to the waters of the firmament which were regarded as closely connected with those below.
Revelation 9:11 states that the destroying angel shall arise out of the abyss during the end times.

These are not as in depth as I would like but they get the point across. Just what is Hell? Is it the grave only? The TOTAL absence from God's presence?
Or is it Hades if your bad but Tatarus if your really bad?

Luther did talk of these things, but this was not his battle nor his calling...

So when you are in Church and reading Scripture, notice how some things are NEVER discussed.. There is a reason for that, be it good or bad, there is a reason.

I have 2 uncles that are LCMS pastors, I have very close friends that are LCMS pastors, and yet, I am WELS. There is a reason for that also, but the best Church I ever belonged to was where it was being directly confronted and under persecution. It was thriving!

Now, I wonder if lukewarm is more accurate....

 

[jblomenberg16]

Ahh...you're one of those WELS guys...at least you're not ELCA!!! I'm joking of course. I'm LCMS. At the end of the day, we're all Christian, and that is what matters. (Although my Catholic friends like to say Lutheran's are diet Catholic!!)

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by Hell in terms of the different original Biblical text descriptions.

You are right that the LCMS (and probably many Christian churches for that matter) don't spend a lot of time on the different discriptions of Hell.

And this is why, IMHO. Hell = Eternal Damnantion = Eternal Banishment from God's prescence = Opposite of Heaven. It doesn't matter if you are in semi-bad Hell, or really bad Hell, you're still in Hell.

Christian Doctrine in general has 2 parts...Law and Gospel.

The Law says that all have been born sinful, and fall short of the Glory of God. The wages of this sin is death and eternal damnation in Hell.

The Gospel says that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have eternal life [in Heaven].

The church could very easily use Hell as a scare tactic and spend a lot of time teaching it, such as "you'd better be good, or you'll go to Hell." But in reality, that's not really what Christianity is about, right? Christianity is about the free gift of eternal Life that Jesus won for us through His death and resurection.

Law and Gospel are needed in the proper portions. You can't teach all Law, just as you can't teach all Gospel.

 

[edsinger]

Ahh...you're one of those WELS guys...at least you're not ELCA!!! I'm joking of course. I'm LCMS. At the end of the day, we're all Christian, and that is what matters. (Although my Catholic friends like to say Lutheran's are diet Catholic!!)

I was LCMS for 35 years....until I moved West......Open communion is one I do not take lightly....

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by Hell in terms of the different original Biblical text descriptions.

There are more but the church doesn't TEACH anymore IMHO. Same subject matter over and over with new packaging.

You are right that the LCMS (and probably many Christian churches for that matter) don't spend a lot of time on the different discriptions of Hell.

They don't teach FEAR for fear of making waves....some do but it is rare.

And this is why, IMHO. Hell = Eternal Damnantion = Eternal Banishment from God's prescence = Opposite of Heaven. It doesn't matter if you are in semi-bad Hell, or really bad Hell, you're still in Hell.

True but what I meant by the differing terms is what the author was trying to tell. For example Tatarus is the Greek place where titans were cast. It was specific for just that and yet Peter chose those words for the Angels. The Lutheran (any) Church will not touch that one at all.

Christian Doctrine in general has 2 parts...Law and Gospel.

True

The Law says that all have been born sinful, and fall short of the Glory of God. The wages of this sin is death and eternal damnation in Hell.

Yes, in this regard our concept of Hell fits...Possibly Abyss or lake of fire hell.

The Gospel says that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have eternal life [in Heaven].

Thats all it takes, but 'believes' is the key. believes what? In Christ? or What was done through Christ?

The church could very easily use Hell as a scare tactic and spend a lot of time teaching it, such as "you'd better be good, or you'll go to Hell." But in reality, that's not really what Christianity is about, right? Christianity is about the free gift of eternal Life that Jesus won for us through His death and resurection.

You HAVE to teach it, otherwise it lessons the burden that Christ bore. It was our sins he suffered for not his. We need to hear what dirt bags we are and that we can do nothing ourselves to 'fix' the problem.

BTW, which hell did Christ preach in as referred to in the Apostles Creed?

Law and Gospel are needed in the proper portions. You can't teach all Law, just as you can't teach all Gospel.

True but you can not only teach one......Gospel has no meaning if the reason for Grace in unknown.

 

[theweakerbrother]

This discussion is the truest form of beating a dead horse. The apocalyptic style of literature that Revelations was written in is mimicked by Old Testament books such as Ezekiel and Daniel. The three books have nothing to do with each other aside from their style but people have always made attempts to jam them all together in some weird prophetic book about the end times.

All the while, the author and the people reading it had a completely different idea.

I've posted about this before regarding Scofield and his Americanized-end-of-the-world version of the Bible insisting that Revelations was a literal account of how things go BOOM at the end of the world. When it comes to Biblical studies, older ideas are usually much better than new ones.

 

[mettle]

I think it is important to note that Paul's New Testament writing was actually referring to a 'spirit' of anti-Christ. This is in fact a very important note to be taken when reading the book of Revelations.

People are looking for a 'body', or 'person'; when in fact, there are civilizations and adherents to teachings right now, taking place, that are in fact--- anti-Christ.

Anti-Christ is a 'mode of being' in mankind that refuses to accept Christ's deity, authority over their lives and they also refute the actual Bible as a true and infallible statement of God's existence and work to reconcile mankind.

THIS, is anti-Christ in the purest form.

 

[edsinger]

This discussion is the truest form of beating a dead horse. The apocalyptic style of literature that Revelations was written in is mimicked by Old Testament books such as Ezekiel and Daniel. The three books have nothing to do with each other aside from their style but people have always made attempts to jam them all together in some weird prophetic book about the end times.

Well I disagree, I feel they all relate, the prophets tell the same story but through different eyes and words...Is it a literal read or symbolic one?

I've posted about this before regarding Scofield and his Americanized-end-of-the-world version of the Bible insisting that Revelations was a literal account of how things go BOOM at the end of the world. When it comes to Biblical studies, older ideas are usually much better than new ones.

Scofield was a 'Darbyist', I do not really fall in that line but he had a point. Israel is now gathered from all the nations, in Darby's time it was a pipedream.....

 

[edsinger]

I think it is important to note that Paul's New Testament writing was actually referring to a 'spirit' of anti-Christ. This is in fact a very important note to be taken when reading the book of Revelations.

Ah yes, this is simple. If not of Christ then it is of antiChrist...agreed but...

People are looking for a 'body', or 'person'; when in fact, there are civilizations and adherents to teachings right now, taking place, that are in fact--- anti-Christ.

"The" Antichrist will be a "body". How you ask? Well simple actually, the prophecy of the Bible basically states the rejection of Jesus as messiah. Therefore the Jews still look and yearn for one. It will HAVE to be a person because his whole purpose is to be accepted as the Messiah. See the one that gets me is the false prophet. That is the one I have trouble with, in league with the Antichrist but not the Antichrist himself.

See here is a thought, if 1/3 of the Angels fell from Grace, and we 'assume' that was generally across the board then 1/3 of the Arc Angels also fell. From the writings we have we know of 4. Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel.

No you might not believe this as they are not listed in the Protestant Bible but are generally accepted outside that circle. (details if you wish but not needed to make a point)

That leaves 2, one we all know. Lucifer maybe? well that name bothers me as it has no bearing in ancient times. It is basically a reference to Venus. Isaiah in Hebrew in no way conveys this name. Anyhow, lets just say Satan so we all can agree on just who I am talking about....

This leaves 1 left right? Any ideas? well I will show you...

Rev 9:11

They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Read up on this one, it is NOT Satan at all and yet he is very powerful indeed. Satan led the rebellion and I guess at one time was the head Angel but still was only a Arc Angel.

Now think about this and the ramifications. Now go back and read about Tatarus. There was a REASON that Greek word was used.

So take not Revelation as only a symbolic journey of the early Christian Church struggles, take it as the last book of God's Word to you and use it as you use the entire Bible to gather His message. It is all INTERRELATED.

Anti-Christ is a 'mode of being' in mankind that refuses to accept Christ's deity, authority over their lives and they also refute the actual Bible as a true and infallible statement of God's existence and work to reconcile mankind.

Again, if not of Christ, then Antichrist....but "the" antichrist is the REAL DEAL. If you understand not, then read again and try to ask about the two witnesses? How do they fit into a 'past' event?

Who are these two? Gee, that one I have struggled with for many years. At this point I have guesses and only that. Elijah and Enoch.

Why? They NEVER died......

 

[mettle]

"The" Antichrist will be a "body".
Again, if not of Christ, then Antichrist....but "the" antichrist is the REAL DEAL. If you understand not, then read again and try to ask about the two witnesses? How do they fit into a 'past' event?

Who are these two? Gee, that one I have struggled with for many years. At this point I have guesses and only that. Elijah and Enoch.

Why? They NEVER died......

You make interesting points. But, Jesus, called those listening about the 'ask for bread, get stones' parable, 'children of the devil'.

I don't believe Satan has the ability to incarnate himself in a man(read, satan himself doing what the Eternal Spirit did in Mary's womb---making himself a new creation), as The Creator did. He doesn't have to. There are people all over this earth who identify themselves as God just for the self glorification of it. And satan would and does allow them to do it, b/c then God isn't glorified or worshiped.

Be careful labeling anything as a solid 'this' or 'that'. No one knows completely, or even with complete understanding. The prophets of old were killed by men, not satan himself; consider that.

My whole point is, people are waiting for some guy to show up... what about the entire earth in rebellion against the Creator? Would that not constitute '666'; the number of man, sitting on a 'throne' calling himself God. You don't have to be a world leader to call yourself God in this day and age. You simply have to refuse the action of the Spirit in your life, purposely refuse truth and resist conviction and at the same time convince yourself that you are your own being and that you are able to create, save and exist by yourself without any outside assistance. That, truly, is the anti-Christ 'spirit' that works right now deceiving and causing a fog of war against truth; and, it is live and well in this very hour and minute.

Interesting conversation... nice and civil.

 

[jstwrit]

I'll let God worry about the end, until then...

It's fun to guess but He tells us knowone knows.

The Day and Hour Unknown

Matthew 24

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.