Bloomington Police purchase of armored truck sparks debate

[Denny347]

So BPD already had an armored vehicle, that they already use, but it was so old and worn out that it was beyond repair. IPD and MCSD had that issue around the time of the merger when IPD had 2 retired Peacekeepers and MCSD had a retired V150 and maybe a Peacekeeper as well, I cannot remember. These were procured in the "olden days" before there were dedicated civilian SWAT vehicles, departments had to use old military vehicles. I'm pretty sure that is what BPD was using before. How long should a vehicle produced in the 70's stay in service? Sooooo, with what do you replace an existing antiquated armored vehicle with? Bank "armored" vehicles are not really armored. They are ok for handgun rounds but not much more than that. So you cannot use one of those. Using an AMRAP is a political hot mess right now with all the "militarization" of police and such. Plus they are large and unwieldy anyway. So, LENCO is one of the few manufacturers of civilian armored vehicles and the vehicle BPD bought as their smallest version. I can tell you that I was involved in an armed stand-off where I had my rifle out and pointed at a suspect. My only cover during the entire incident was a tree. It is a great feeling to see a Bearcat pulling up an replacing the tree as cover. These vehicles are used primarily as mobile cover...THAT's IT. I'm not sure why they are so controversial. A brand new SUV costs $70k. These upfitted F-450's are really not as expensive as they sound.

 

[Woobie]

So BPD already had an armored vehicle, that they already use, but it was so old and worn out that it was beyond repair. IPD and MCSD had that issue around the time of the merger when IPD had 2 retired Peacekeepers and MCSD had a retired V150 and maybe a Peacekeeper as well, I cannot remember. These were procured in the "olden days" before there were dedicated civilian SWAT vehicles, departments had to use old military vehicles. I'm pretty sure that is what BPD was using before. How long should a vehicle produced in the 70's stay in service? Sooooo, with what do you replace an existing antiquated armored vehicle with? Bank "armored" vehicles are not really armored. They are ok for handgun rounds but not much more than that. So you cannot use one of those. Using an AMRAP is a political hot mess right now with all the "militarization" of police and such. Plus they are large and unwieldy anyway. So, LENCO is one of the few manufacturers of civilian armored vehicles and the vehicle BPD bought as their smallest version. I can tell you that I was involved in an armed stand-off where I had my rifle out and pointed at a suspect. My only cover during the entire incident was a tree. It is a great feeling to see a Bearcat pulling up an replacing the tree as cover. These vehicles are used primarily as mobile cover...THAT's IT. I'm not sure why they are so controversial. A brand new SUV costs $70k. These upfitted F-450's are really not as expensive as they sound.

First, I appreciate the views you and jsharmon have expressed on this. I respect all the cops on here, but I find the "but dead cops" and the "crying over $225,000" pot shots in other threads a bit childish and emotionally based. I'm glad there was a Bearcat around when you needed it, I really am. And it was obviously money well spent. But I have made no argument against IMPD having one of these. In fact, I have stated the opposite. So thank you for your post.

A few follow up comments to hopefully reach some kind of conclusion on the value of this thing.

1. How did they wear out the old one? Was it age, training exercises, call outs or something else?

2. If call outs, was it necessary for the old armored vehicle to be on site, or was it just SOP to take it on certain runs?

If it is SOP to take it on certain runs, I will have to defer to expertise on that. I make no pretense about being knowledgeable on police tactics, nor have I. But if we take it just to take it, well, that doesn't really justify a new one. I get that it is old, and unserviceable. But getting rid of the old one is not an automatic justification for a new one.

As I have consistently stated, purchase of police equipment needs to be matched to the unique needs of the municipality. I have yet to be convinced that Bloomington meets that level of scrutiny. But maybe it does, and I have remained willing to be convinced. But as long as we are talking fiscal issues, I will continue to reject emotional arguments.

This is the last time I will bring this up: how many incidents requiring the use of an armored vehicle do we create for ourselves through prohibition? If we really care about cops, maybe we should concentrate on reforming our laws to minimize the unnecessary violence to which they are exposed. And I think cops should lead that charge, it is their own necks on the line. The Sheriff's associations never will, because they see too much federal cheese flowing their way. Maybe we don't need bearcats in every college town if the only thing we do with it is bust dealers. Dealers we could put out of business with the stroke of a pen. Maybe we would need bearcats, but we could better afford them for more municipalities if we didn't waste so much money on enforcement of unnecessary laws.

I don't think $225,000 is a bad deal for the vehicle you are getting. I think $225,000 is a lot of money added to all the rest of the money taxpayers are asked to fork over. I don't think $2,500 is a bad deal for a Wilson Combat or a SCAR heavy. But it is a lot of money, and doesn't work inside my budget. But at least my budget is my own, made by my work. Government works off money they have collected, or maybe confiscated, from the citizens. There should be more scrutiny than sometimes exists.

 

[shootersix]

Did they happen to use one of those when they invited the press to the "knock and announce" raid and flashbanging of the grandma and granddaughter for failing to secure their wi-fi router? You know the case, the one where they later figured out who did make the threats and just asked them to come to the station which they did and were arrested without incident?

no because there was a threat made to kill police officers and their familys, all the guardian would have done was take pictures of a person leaving the house on the way to kill people (had that been the true house, and not an issue of a "unsecured router")

And do you think the same results in your story would have happened if they parked a marked squad across the street? I'm guessing yes. Did the gang leader realize the error of their ways and give up their life of crime, or simply move to where the pressure was a bit less? I'm guessing the latter. no parking a "marked squad across the street" wouldn't work unless someone was sitting in it 24/7, as far as seeing the "error of their ways" I really doubt it, but the criminal moved out on our neighborhood, and my daughter didn't have to work about being accidently shot in a gang incident

.

 

[seedubs1]

Wow this thread was fun.

I really enjoyed reading the comments basically stating that civilians should just shut up and let the police officers do whatever they want. And if the civilians disagree, they must be anti-cop and don't care about officer safety.

Personally, I'm wanting more fiscal responsibility. Bloomington doesn't need this stuff. What a waste of money. The .gov needs to stop spending.

 

[printcraft]

QFT

 

[Indyhd]

Unfortunately once you “Need” one and don’t have it, it’s too late to decide to buy it.
I’m from the I’d rather have a .380 in my pocket rather than the .$% at home crowd.
Was there not a young lady who didn’t take here handgun to breakfast and a mast shooting took place and she watched her parents both shot to death.

Only those in Monroe county should weigh in on this, after all is it any of our business if they decide to relocate wolves to Yellowstone Park kind of logic.

 

[Woobie]

Unfortunately once you “Need” one and don’t have it, it’s too late to decide to buy it.
I’m from the I’d rather have a .380 in my pocket rather than the .$% at home crowd.
Was there not a young lady who didn’t take here handgun to breakfast and a mast shooting took place and she watched her parents both shot to death.

Only those in Monroe county should weigh in on this, after all is it any of our business if they decide to relocate wolves to Yellowstone Park kind of logic.

If Monroe county wants to stop taking state and federal money, then no one will have basis for criticism. As long as we persist with this insane co-opting of local law enforcement by the federal government, then people will want accountability for money spent in places they do not live.

 

[UTL]

Wow this thread was fun.

I really enjoyed reading the comments basically stating that civilians should just shut up and let the police officers do whatever they want. And if the civilians disagree, they must be anti-cop and don't care about officer safety.

Personally, I'm wanting more fiscal responsibility. Bloomington doesn't need this stuff. What a waste of money. The .gov needs to stop spending.

It may seem strange but the people making the decisions are either elected or appointed by people that are elected....weird I know....its almost like someone can be held accountable.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

.no because there was a threat made to kill police officers and their familys, all the guardian would have done was take pictures of a person leaving the house on the way to kill people (had that been the true house, and not an issue of a "unsecured router")

no parking a "marked squad across the street" wouldn't work unless someone was sitting in it 24/7, as far as seeing the "error of their ways" I really doubt it, but the criminal moved out on our neighborhood, and my daughter didn't have to work about being accidently shot in a gang incident

I looked up what the "guardian" is, it's not exactly what we are discussing here. They are worn out brink's trucks with a paint job and a camera.

An unmanned marked squad with a camera would be just as much of a deterrent as a unmanned broken down brinks truck with a paint job and a camera. Unless what the antis say is true and those evil black rifles are just bad because of how they look. And I'm guessing that if the neighborhood your daughter worked in was bad enough to worry about being shot in a gang incident, one guy moving isn't going to make much of a difference.

Unfortunately once you “Need” one and don’t have it, it’s too late to decide to buy it.
I’m from the I’d rather have a .380 in my pocket rather than the .$% at home crowd.
Was there not a young lady who didn’t take here handgun to breakfast and a mast shooting took place and she watched her parents both shot to death.

Only those in Monroe county should weigh in on this, after all is it any of our business if they decide to relocate wolves to Yellowstone Park kind of logic.

Yes, we all get that. But there is a reasonable expectation of need, especially when you're using other peoples money. There are quite a few people here who recommend that you should carry all the time, how many recommend wearing body armor with an extra plate duct taped to your back? Or that everyone should up-armor their golf cart and equip it with rpgs? Or there has been one case where it's arguable that they needed and used a robot with a bomb strapped to it, to take out an active shooter. Does every PD need one?

And please this is INGO we discuss things from all over the world. Although I'd say it has relevance, the other kid on the block has something new, every kid wants one. Whether it's needed or not.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I think it was said upthread that they get 20 call outs a year .
Of those , how many were of the ' if we don't go in RIGHT NOW someone's gonna die ' variety ?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Perspective:

The Navy has 3 Zumwalt ships that they can't afford ammunition for and are essentially useless. Each county in the US (pretending equal distribution) paid well over $4 million for this debacle.

I wonder which contribute more to the safety and security of the US...4 mil for public safety, mental health institutions, etc...or 3 ships designed for $1 mil per shot ammo we're not buying.

It's not about cost.

 

[shootersix]

I looked up what the "guardian" is, it's not exactly what we are discussing here. They are worn out brink's trucks with a paint job and a camera.

An unmanned marked squad with a camera would be just as much of a deterrent as a unmanned broken down brinks truck with a paint job and a camera. Unless what the antis say is true and those evil black rifles are just bad because of how they look. And I'm guessing that if the neighborhood your daughter worked in was bad enough to worry about being shot in a gang incident, one guy moving isn't going to make much of a difference.

.

an unmarked squad sitting in a parking lot, is NOT on the street, where it needs to be, they aren't broken down, granted they're not in the greatest shape, and I've yet to hear of an arrest being made, but I will tell you this, the neighborhood where this happened is 3 blocks from my house and ive yet to hear of another gang shooting in this parking lot (this was 2 years ago) and if you know the layout of Evansville it's on the corner of covert and van and happened at 10.30 on a Saturday night.

could epd use this as a "emergency siege" vehicle....yes, but my point is this, you can find cheap, or you can find reliable, but its damn near impossible to find cheap AND reliable.

the logic of some posters on the thread equates to this, they have 20 year old body armor.....why do the need new armor? or why to they need glocks or m&p's....they make hi points and jimenez 380s don't they!


my last 2 comments in this thread will be
1 proper planning prevents p!$$ poor performance
2 if its a fair fight, YOU'RE NOT PREPAIRED!!!!

the mrap will give Bloomington proper planning and an advantage in a fair fight

 

[Woobie]

Perspective:

The Navy has 3 Zumwalt ships that they can't afford ammunition for and are essentially useless. Each county in the US (pretending equal distribution) paid well over $4 million for this debacle.

I wonder which contribute more to the safety and security of the US...4 mil for public safety, mental health institutions, etc...or 3 ships designed for $1 mil per shot ammo we're not buying.

It's not about cost.

Sure it is. Those Zumwalts were a nightmare of trying to meet a future threat with incomplete technology. It makes the F35 program look frugal and sensible by comparison. They should never have wasted that money. But two wastes do not make a balanced budget. Bad spending policies are not a justification for bad spending policies.

I'm open to an argument on why this is a good spending policy. Just haven't heard it yet.

Look, if we want to start a thread about DoD waste, fraud and abuse, I am totally down with that. But that's not what this is about. This sounds like one of my kids complaining that they didn't get to do something that one of the other kids just got in trouble for doing.

 

[seedubs1]

"Sure we wasted your money. But it wasn't as much of a waste as that other program over there."

Sure it is. Those Zumwalts were a nightmare of trying to meet a future threat with incomplete technology. It makes the F35 program look frugal and sensible by comparison. They should never have wasted that money. But two wastes do not make a balanced budget. Bad spending policies are not a justification for bad spending policies.

I'm open to an argument on why this is a good spending policy. Just haven't heard it yet.

Look, if we want to start a thread about DoD waste, fraud and abuse, I am totally down with that. But that's not what this is about. This sounds like one of my kids complaining that they didn't get to do something that one of the other kids just got in trouble for doing.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

an unmarked squad sitting in a parking lot, is NOT on the street, where it needs to be, they aren't broken down, granted they're not in the greatest shape, and I've yet to hear of an arrest being made, but I will tell you this, the neighborhood where this happened is 3 blocks from my house and ive yet to hear of another gang shooting in this parking lot (this was 2 years ago) and if you know the layout of Evansville it's on the corner of covert and van and happened at 10.30 on a Saturday night.

could epd use this as a "emergency siege" vehicle....yes, but my point is this, you can find cheap, or you can find reliable, but its damn near impossible to find cheap AND reliable.

the logic of some posters on the thread equates to this, they have 20 year old body armor.....why do the need new armor? or why to they need glocks or m&p's....they make hi points and jimenez 380s don't they!


my last 2 comments in this thread will be
1 proper planning prevents p!$$ poor performance
2 if its a fair fight, YOU'RE NOT PREPAIRED!!!!

the mrap will give Bloomington proper planning and an advantage in a fair fight

Wait, is an unmanned marked squad car with a camera less effective than these unmanned marked "guardians" with a camera or is it because the squads should be out on the streets? Does Evansville have any backup units, or are all their cars out patrolling all the time? If all their cars are out patrolling all the time, wouldn't it make more sense to get a couple of backup units and outfit them like the "guardian" so they would be more versatile? Do they issue take home cars? How much do they do sitting their driveway/garage, shouldn't they be out on the street? That appears to be your logic. Use as a deterrent as these currently are, or as a patrol vehicle if needed. And if they have 3 of them and one is just for parts... Not the best shape is most likely an understatement IMO.

Nope, I have no idea about the layout of Evansville, but if there was one shooting in 2 years I'm guessing it's not that bad of neighborhood and the guy you are refering to would have been moving whether or not they parked this thing in from of their house. And according to at least one officer on here, those type of vehicles aren't suitable for the type of use being discussed in this thread.

And no, that isn't the logic of anyone in this thread that I've seen. I don't wish to see my local PD carrying a lorcin or highpoint, but after I found out they had switched pistols something like 4 times in 5 or 6 year, well. You're logic seems to be that no matter what, the police should get anything they wish, no matter how likely it is to be needed or the cost on the basis of it might come in handy sometime in the future. I can think of 2 incidents off the top of my head where an A-10 warthog, a M1A1 abrhams, or at the very least a couple of AT-4 anti tank weapons most definitely would have came in handy. Should every PD have those? I can pretty much guarantee that in two instances I'm thinking of a bearcat or Evansville's "guardians" wouldn't be worth squat.

 

[Leadeye]

I see this as more of a local issue. The machine is bought, end of story, if the citizens of Bloomington think this is a bad idea, run the mayor out of office in the next election.

 

[Denny347]

1. How did they wear out the old one? Was it age, training exercises, call outs or something else?

2. If call outs, was it necessary for the old armored vehicle to be on site, or was it just SOP to take it on certain runs?


If it is SOP to take it on certain runs, I will have to defer to expertise on that. I make no pretense about being knowledgeable on police tactics, nor have I. But if we take it just to take it, well, that doesn't really justify a new one. I get that it is old, and unserviceable. But getting rid of the old one is not an automatic justification for a new one.

I doubt anyone on this board can answer this.

As I have consistently stated, purchase of police equipment needs to be matched to the unique needs of the municipality. I have yet to be convinced that Bloomington meets that level of scrutiny. But maybe it does, and I have remained willing to be convinced. But as long as we are talking fiscal issues, I will continue to reject emotional arguments.

Again, these are questions that only BPD can answer and I'm not aware of any of them on this board.

This is the last time I will bring this up: how many incidents requiring the use of an armored vehicle do we create for ourselves through prohibition? If we really care about cops, maybe we should concentrate on reforming our laws to minimize the unnecessary violence to which they are exposed. And I think cops should lead that charge, it is their own necks on the line. The Sheriff's associations never will, because they see too much federal cheese flowing their way. Maybe we don't need bearcats in every college town if the only thing we do with it is bust dealers. Dealers we could put out of business with the stroke of a pen. Maybe we would need bearcats, but we could better afford them for more municipalities if we didn't waste so much money on enforcement of unnecessary laws.

I agree with you but that does little to help the officers NOW.

 

[jamil]

That was actually suggested, and a councilwoman thought it was a good idea.

Yeah. But did she think of the Hello Kitty stickers?

 

[Sylvain]

Do we have a picture of the truck?

 

[longbow]

Waiting for it to wreck or turn over