Black man shot in Kenosha, riots starting all over again...

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  • ditcherman

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    In the country, hopefully.
    I never questioned the legality nor the morality. Defense of self is both, and by some views, mine among them, a Creator-imposed duty.

    Once Mr. Rittenhouse found himself in extremis, his options were de facto reduced to “kill or be killed”, (because “shoot for center-of-mass or be shot in center-of-mass” is a bit unwieldy as a turn of phrase) My position is simply that being somewhere, voluntarily and knowingly, where you know that your options are likely to be reduced thusly, is not the wisest course of action. Bold, certainly, which brings to mind the quote about old men and bold men, and the dearth or old, bold men.



    This exactly, Jamil. I carry while I’m at the grocery store, shopping. I don’t think the likelihood high of my needing that gun in that place at that time, but I’d rather have it and not need it. I’m not carrying TO the store. I’m going to the store. It happens that I carry, and there’s nothing about that store that makes it that I should not do so there. If the only grocery I had in my neighborhood was a bodega with a history of robberies to which the police were slow to respond, I’d be driving farther to do my shopping. I would choose not to go to the bodega, because I would not feel safe there.

    To return to Chip’s example, mob coming to my neighborhood. *I* would like choose not to sit out on the front porch. Why? I want my house to just blend in. Nothing stands out, nothing draws attention. Avoid the fight. This is not to say I wouldn’t be watching. This is not to say I would be unarmed. But before I take up arms, they would be bringing the fight to me, and I would be defending. There would be no perception of impropriety, no one saying “He should have just stayed inside!!!!”

    We all know the media will spin these stories.
    My first job is to protect my family and my home. My second is to deny them a narrative such that if they want to spin one, they will have to lie about me.

    ”White Supremacist”? No.
    ”Prejudiced”? Only against criminals, color unimportant.

    Trump supporter? By default, but yes. One of the two main parties will be in the White House for the next four years. I can’t see doing anything to leave it to chance that it would be Biden and/or Harris. That only leaves Trump. With that said, I don’t like his personality but his effectiveness in office is unparalleled, and he’s accomplished that in spite of having to fight not only the Dems but the media and his own party at the same time. That’s a winning combination in my mind.

    Blessings,
    Bill
    Thank you for your well written and thoughtful (as always) response. It does add clarity to your position. For me, some of the responses that share your view have seemed judgmental to one degree or another, first of the Kenosha Kid, but also of those of us here who fall somewhere on the "he was a hero" spectrum (Alpo's analysis of "it's binary" not withstanding:)). From my perspective no one who believes he had every right to be there, or may themselves even choose to participate in like manner, is passing judgment on anyone who chooses to stay on the porch, or even inside. I don't want to assume what others are thinking/saying but I am strictly defending him, and defending my right to join in a similar manner, not necessarily encouraging others to join in in similar fashion. I guess I am here to question, decipher, and understand the logic.

    I've never had the honor of serving this country in uniform, nor taken any kinds of oaths. I have found myself in a situation where I very much felt like I was defending my homeland. It was many years ago, I was barely an adult, it had to do with a farm and a bank, and it was really my fathers fight, but I can't imagine feeling any more like we were defending the homeland than we did then. At some point, everyone may have to choose to defend their homeland. I believe this may be one of the ways the BLM ringleaders are able to so highly motivate the useful tools to do their bidding; protesting/rioting is their outlet (misguided as it may be) to the oppression that they feel, rightly or wrongly. Where is our point that we define "our homeland"? To me, it has to start way before my front porch; it's somewhere between the neighborhood and society in general. I would assume you feel the same when it comes to being a positive influence, I'm certainly not saying you don't, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that these people, while feeling some oppression, are not really defending their homeland, they are being manipulated and used, and will stand down when met with just the slightest resistance. When that happens, the actual ringleaders may be forced to be more involved in one way or another, and they can be dealt with more appropriately if identified correctly. ("more appropriately" is kinda like "more equal" in this example) Therefore, taking the fight to them can pay big dividends.

    I'm all about the gray man theory and blending. I do not believe, however, that we should choose our actions based on what someone that has already many times over proven to have ulterior motives may say or think about us. There is always the choice of right over wrong (who am I sitting here telling you this?!?!) and that may involve disregarding how something may get spun. I understand, we also have to choose what hill to die on. I think that's what this boils down to, what hill to die on. Where that hill is for us. We've rolled over (my overgeneralized opinion of course) so far that we have nearly lost sight of our compass, I fear sometimes. I agree that my first job is to defend my family and home, and I would like to think that I would choose to expand the definition of home without worry of what someone, up to and including a jury of my peers, will say. I would like to see the perception of what the Kenosha Kid did be regarded as ok to do, not as something marginal. I believe in the spirit of America.

    Concerning your comments on Trump, I feel very similarly, but if it seems a no-brainer that Trump will win I will vote for Jo Jorgenson, if nothing else to try to break the two party system and get some peoples' attention.
     
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    ditcherman

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    In the country, hopefully.
    I agree. There has been talk and even some movement on going after Soros since he can be linked financially to open borders movement which in turn financially can be linked to ANTIFA and blm

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
    ???
    My comment was in regards to a silly meme that I posted and was told I was winning, a few pages ago. I have been dethroned by a highly meaningful and logical comment.
    CM, I will hold this time of winning as one of my most cherished memories. Thanks.
     

    churchmouse

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    ???
    My comment was in regards to a silly meme that I posted and was told I was winning, a few pages ago. I have been dethroned by a highly meaningful and logical comment.
    CM, I will hold this time of winning as one of my most cherished memories. Thanks.

    There has been a lot of "Winning" in many of these threads. A lot. Some of it was pretty special. Like yours.
    Along with some serious stupid from the usual suspects as usual but hey we are all entitled to an opinion. If yours does not stand up to the tests it brings forth then review it and change it or stand firm behind it. That is what all of this is about. Man up. Make a commitment.
     

    ditcherman

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    In the country, hopefully.
    There has been a lot of "Winning" in many of these threads. A lot. Some of it was pretty special. Like yours.
    Along with some serious stupid from the usual suspects as usual but hey we are all entitled to an opinion. If yours does not stand up to the tests it brings forth then review it and change it or stand firm behind it. That is what all of this is about. Man up. Make a commitment.
    Well I did just work really hard to put BOR back in his place!





    ETA: Man, I hope this taken as the humor it is supposed to be...
     

    churchmouse

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    Well I did just work really hard to put BOR back in his place!





    ETA: Man, I hope this taken as the humor it is supposed to be...

    BOR is a very well read man with a command of the language. I always enjoy his opinions as they are well thought out. Agree or not he will make his case.

    Yeah I see the humor.
     

    jamil

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    Hopefully the investigative subpoenas have already been executed. Are we okay with civil forfeiture of assets of those bankrolling this (stuff)?
    No. Prosecution, sure. Fines, sure. Most forfeiture laws need to be stricken down as unconstitutional.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Sheriff: 205 suspects arrested in Kenosha protests

    Seems a LOT of these poor innocent "protesters" are armed felons.

    Good opportunity for federal weapons charges and is appropriate and would keep these particularly heinous miscreants out of "the game" for 10 years.

    I'd catalog this under "reasonable gun control", lol!

    And I believe well over 50% were from out of state

    There were 205 arrests and 114 were from outside of Kenosha. He started to say out of state, then corrected himself. Haven't seen numbers on out of state, but would be interested to see what number/percentage were out of state for the serious charges. The "successful" agitator riles, instigates and orients the mob, then fades back as the mob does the majority of the deed.

    64 of the 205 were "merely" for curfew violations, though my guess is they were in the vicinity of mayhem, just weren't spotted committing said mayhem, so some maybe upgraded after the video replay review. :)

    So about those 3 cars that were pulled over, and 9 occupants arrested. They were with a poorly named group called the “Riot Kitchen.” Apparently this group feeds protestors/rioters at various “events.” The has they were getting was for their portable generators.
    Like I said earlier, if the each had a controlled substance in their possession and illegal fireworks, fine charge them... but do we really think that they ALL were holding? They also apparently had vests and helmets, but no weapons of note. Are we still thinking that all of these people should have been carted off?


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.se...ehicles-held-amid-police-investigation/?amp=1

    Scratching my head, Kut, given your previous remark about not needing outsiders coming into the area from far, far away land.

    And, no idea if they had, for example, cases of glass bottles, soap flakes and shop rags, in which case then it moves from hunch to articulable probable cause, IMO.

    And, rather than "poorly named", I would surmise quite accurately named, lol!

    Finally, the part about trying to escape a police? From the article you linked:

    The officers detained the occupants of the bread truck and van, and joined with federal law enforcement agents to force entry into the minivan after the driver tried to drive away from police, according to the statement.
     

    jamil

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    This clears up a few questions. It was Kyle putting out fires, and that is what upset the crowd and they did threaten to kill him, according to his lawyer.

    [video=youtube_share;J2RJ-iv2VyQ]http://youtu.be/J2RJ-iv2VyQ[/video]
     

    T.Lex

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    As someone who tries to be prepared for emergencies, it concerns me that the act of filling up multiple jerry cans of gas for generators could be a key piece of evidence supporting reasonable articulable suspicion.

    The Riot Kitchen people, while perhaps well-meaning for wanting to feed those who are hungry, under a slightly different scenario might have been part of an MSG or prepping group.

    That puts the LE action in a slightly different light.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    No. Prosecution, sure. Fines, sure. Most forfeiture laws need to be stricken down as unconstitutional.

    Civil forfeiture? No, I'm with Jamil that these are inherently evil and unconstitutional as there is no due process.

    Seizing assets of an organized criminal enterprise in conjunction with RICO prosecutions... you betcha! I'm all in on that.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    As someone who tries to be prepared for emergencies, it concerns me that the act of filling up multiple jerry cans of gas for generators could be a key piece of evidence supporting reasonable articulable suspicion.

    The Riot Kitchen people, while perhaps well-meaning for wanting to feed those who are hungry, under a slightly different scenario might have been part of an MSG or prepping group.

    That puts the LE action in a slightly different light.
    Sorry, T, but no dice... it's in their name and they chose it... they were driving cross country to FEED RIOTERS so the RIOTS could continue with minimal abatement for food breaks. An army marches on it's stomach doncha know? :)

    In Seattle, this is ok for them to outright state their intention of logistical support for riots and rioters. Wisconsin, nope... which gives hope.
     

    Trigger Time

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    So about those 3 cars that were pulled over, and 9 occupants arrested. They were with a poorly named group called the “Riot Kitchen.” Apparently this group feeds protestors/rioters at various “events.” The has they were getting was for their portable generators.
    Like I said earlier, if the each had a controlled substance in their possession and illegal fireworks, fine charge them... but do we really think that they ALL were holding? They also apparently had vests and helmets, but no weapons of note. Are we still thinking that all of these people should have been carted off?


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.se...ehicles-held-amid-police-investigation/?amp=1
    Yes. Cart them all off. Flog them. Waterboard them. Convict them. Hang them
     

    chipbennett

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    As someone who tries to be prepared for emergencies, it concerns me that the act of filling up multiple jerry cans of gas for generators could be a key piece of evidence supporting reasonable articulable suspicion.

    The Riot Kitchen people, while perhaps well-meaning for wanting to feed those who are hungry, under a slightly different scenario might have been part of an MSG or prepping group.

    That puts the LE action in a slightly different light.

    How could it not be RAS? Filling up multiple gas cans with gasoline - a common accelerant - to be taken to a location/event known for buildings, cars, dumpsters, and sundry being set on fire.

    PC? No. RAS? Absolutely. Is that not how RAS works?
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    How could it not be RAS? Filling up multiple gas cans with gasoline - a common accelerant - to be taken to a location/event known for buildings, cars, dumpsters, and sundry being set on fire.

    PC? No. RAS? Absolutely. Is that not how RAS works?

    All the above, plus out of state plates... they drove 2000 miles from Seattle, right? <-- this question to T

    And then, when approached by police, they locked the doors and attempted to drive away. With that action, probable cause to search the vehicle.

    They should have stepped out, locked the door, and talked or not talked to police, etc.

    Personally, "Sorry, I do not talk to police without my attorney present and I do not consent to search. Am I being detained or can I go?"

    Rinse/repeat to all questions.
     
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