Black man shot in Kenosha, riots starting all over again...

[Hatin Since 87]

I like being alive. Some folks don't. I don't push my luck when it's not necessary.

Ya I’m pretty fond of breathing, but I also don’t expect to be killed if I’m not being threatening in any way. I am curious as to what facts will come out, was there a weapon present, was a verbal threat made, did people who called report seeing something more? From the video I saw I don’t see enough to justify deadly force, but as we know, there’s always more than what is shown at first.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Hatin, Alpo,

Have you guys done any scenario based force on force training?

Not picking here, but I am thinking about what I see and what you guys are seeing. I figure we are all decent folks who want the same results.

 

[Alpo]

Then why not cooperate? I don't see anything in the LEO's favor either, but I also don't see anything in the guy that decided to go all macho's favor. Me? I'd have said, "Sorry officer. I was just trying to break up a fight." That probably would've ended the encounter. But macho *******s being macho *******s doesn't allow for that option I guess.

So, a guy gets called over to the neighbors to break up a cat fight. These neighbors fight almost daily and he's sick of it, but he tries to calm it down before the popo shows up again. He's got a car full of kids on a hot freaking day.

Cop shows up hassling HIM! He was the peacemaker. He says, "go talk to the people you were called to investigate". He walks to his car.

Cop says "stop or I'll shoot!"

WTF, homie asks. Shoot me? **** you.

Blam...blam blam blam blam blam blam......blam.

Now, that may or may not have happened. Sure looks to me like I might be close. Maybe not.

If so....there are a number of points in there where bad decisions are made on both sides. But, the guy with 6 or 7 shots outta his pistol has a greater responsibility to make sure each and everyone of those was necessary.

I think it stinks so far.

But, I'll wait on facts.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Hatin, Alpo,

Have you guys done any scenario based force on force training?

Not picking here, but I am thinking about what I see and what you guys are seeing. I figure we are all decent folks who want the same results.

Nope, and to be clear I’m not saying the officer is in the wrong. I’m just saying if there was no weapon anywhere to be found, this wasn’t a good shoot. I don’t know all the facts so will not say if it was a good shoot or wasn’t, all I’m arguing is the fact disobeying an order in itself shouldn’t be enough to use deadly force. Disobeying an order while a weapon is present is. There’s a huge difference in the 2.

 

[Alpo]

Hatin, Alpo,

Have you guys done any scenario based force on force training?

Not picking here, but I am thinking about what I see and what you guys are seeing. I figure we are all decent folks who want the same results.

It appears to me the question ought to be addressed to the officer involved.

 

[BugI02]

So, what exactly in your opinion should trump do that would satisfy the people rioting?

I don't know how to think like a [STRIKE]jackwagon[/STRIKE] progressive, but I'm guessing seppuku

Why is 'do what the cops tell you' never an option that is considered. Won't comply, taking something from near the driver's seat within the vehicle, IMO dude's skin color has NOTHING to do with how that ended up

 

[BugI02]

Excellent post! anytime someone bets on a plinker getting shootered for simply disagreeing with the majority, it's a great post!

T Lexzoe, is that you?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

IMO dude's skin color has NOTHING to do with how that ended up

I agree, I don’t believe this is a race issue at all. The only mentions of race I hear are from the media and BLM folks. I wish we could evaluate an officer involved shooting without race even being mentioned, but too many agendas for that. I’m hoping some facts come out that aren’t public yet, but I don’t think that will stop the rioting and looting and this will be the center of attention for the next month at least.

 

[BugI02]

I dunno, I think it kinda matters. Not following orders isn’t a death sentence. I’m a huge supporter of LEO, but that isn’t to say I condone shooting a perp for disobeying an order. Now, if a weapon was present, that changes a lot.

Not really wanting to bust your chops, it's just an entry point for the question. I know people will deflect that LEOs should perform to a higher standard, and I would certainly like to see bodycam footage if they are equipped, but:

If you had elected to draw on someone you were involved in an altercation with, how far would you let said person go when reaching into a vehicle, perhaps retrieving a weapon from near the driver's seat? Would you let them turn around with something retrieved inside the vehicle in hand and wait until you could discern what they were holding?

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Re: alpo,

I don't know him and if he is on here, there's no way he is talking.

I am not jabbing at you or trying to "win" the discussion. I am honestly trying to figure out why we are seeing such different things here.

There is a thread somewhere on here with the leader of the "new black panther party" where he goes through some scenario force on force and it really changed his perspective. I will try to dig it up.

I don't know what happened there either.

 

[KG1]

I guess all the incidences where a white individual was shot by a cop don't matter. Like there have never been any where a white individual was shot by the police while reaching for something unknown. Kinda hard to find examples of those when they generally don't get reported on with such fervor.

 

[2A_Tom]

Blam blam blam... blam blam blam blam. /QUOTE]

Fixed for posterity.

 

[BugI02]

He lived there. This was at his residence, from what I understand. The catfight was nextdoor neighbors.

I'm sorry, but so far I see nothing in this LEO's favor.

I read that the call to police reported a domestic dispute. Kenosha is likely a liberal enclave. That might require the police to intervene in such cases , as is the law in many places. Did you check? Or just turn the dial directly to character assassination

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/wisconsin-law/wisconsin-domestic-violence-laws.html
Wisconsin Domestic Violence Laws

Domestic Violence Criminal Laws

Wisconsin law defines domestic abuse as an adult engaging in intentional infliction of physical pain, injury, or illness; sexual assault; or physical acts threatening either of those against his or her current or former spouse, current or former co-habitant, or co-parent. A police officer is required to arrest and take into custody a person the officer believes has committed domestic abuse and a crime, when he or she reasonably believes the abuse will likely continue, there's evidence of physical injury to the victim, and the person being arrested is the primary aggressor.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Not really wanting to bust your chops, it's just an entry point for the question. I know people will deflect that LEOs should perform to a higher standard, and I would certainly like to see bodycam footage if they are equipped, but:

If you had elected to draw on someone you were involved in an altercation with, how far would you let said person go when reaching into a vehicle, perhaps retrieving a weapon from near the driver's seat? Would you let them turn around with something retrieved inside the vehicle in hand and wait until you could discern what they were holding?

Thats a good question and I actually thought about this earlier after I watched the video. This is a tough question to answer but I’m gonna try to answer as honestly as I can by putting myself in the hypothetical situation.

Thinking about this earlier I even tripped myself up a little. So I came up with 2 scenarios... what lead to me drawing my weapon the begin with. If I unholstered because he was verbally threatening to kill me, and walked to his car and reached in, yes I would pull the trigger, a threat was made and now, as far as I can tell, he’s attempting to follow through with that threat.

If no threats were made, no weapon was in plain sight, and he was just going inside the car, no, I wouldn’t shoot, but I would be finger on the trigger and awareness meter at 100 waiting for a quick movement or visually seeing something in hand. This is the toughest scenario, because if I’m a split second late I’m probably dead, but if I shoot and there’s no weapon present I’m likely going to prison and live with the fact I killed an innocent person. Also, given this situation (no verbal threats, no physical altercation, no visual on a weapon) I wouldn’t unholster my firearm. That’s me, as a citizen. I understand the officer having his unholstered since he’s responding to calls and being in potentially deadly situations.

 

[BugI02]

Thats a good question and I actually thought about this earlier after I watched the video. This is a tough question to answer but I’m gonna try to answer as honestly as I can by putting myself in the hypothetical situation.

Thinking about this earlier I even tripped myself up a little. So I came up with 2 scenarios... what lead to me drawing my weapon the begin with. If I unholstered because he was verbally threatening to kill me, and walked to his car and reached in, yes I would pull the trigger, a threat was made and now, as far as I can tell, he’s attempting to follow through with that threat.

If no threats were made, no weapon was in plain sight, and he was just going inside the car, no, I wouldn’t shoot, but I would be finger on the trigger and awareness meter at 100 waiting for a quick movement or visually seeing something in hand. This is the toughest scenario, because if I’m a split second late I’m probably dead, but if I shoot and there’s no weapon present I’m likely going to prison and live with the fact I killed an innocent person. Also, given this situation (no verbal threats, no physical altercation, no visual on a weapon) I wouldn’t unholster my firearm. That’s me, as a citizen. I understand the officer having his unholstered since he’s responding to calls and being in potentially deadly situations.

Yeah, actually my scenario is bad. If it was me, I wouldn't follow him to his vehicle. I would put distance between us and cover if available. The LEOs don't really have that option to disengage

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Yeah, actually my scenario is bad. If it was me, I wouldn't follow him to his vehicle. I would put distance between us and cover if available. The LEOs don't really have that option to disengage

100%. Really good point.


That’s why it’s hard to compare an officers reaction to what an of our reaction would be. They have to respond to a situation knowing nothing about it, and tensions are pretty high within the 2 communities as it is, so I completely understand him being on a heightened alert. The only point I was trying to make earlier, and it isn’t even about this officers situation necessarily since I don’t know the facts, is that I don’t believe simply not following orders should be enough justification for deadly force without another factor being present. If he made a verbal threat and reached to the car, sure. If officers saw a weapon in the car, sure. If he physically assaulted the officers and then reached into the car, sure. But just walking away from a conversation, nah, not to me anyway.

 

[Alpo]

Re: alpo,

I don't know him and if he is on here, there's no way he is talking.

I am not jabbing at you or trying to "win" the discussion. I am honestly trying to figure out why we are seeing such different things here.

There is a thread somewhere on here with the leader of the "new black panther party" where he goes through some scenario force on force and it really changed his perspective. I will try to dig it up.

I don't know what happened there either.

There just aren't enough facts right now.

Was this a 911 domestic disturbance call? Man with gun? Cops know the guy to be a violent armed individual? Why was the man stopped? Did it have anything at all to do with why they were there?

etc etc etc

There are just way too many unknowns at this moment to really draw any conclusions. But, so far, the man appeared to be unarmed. (If they cops had found a gun in the car within the man's reach...wouldn't they have mentioned this?)

I'm just frustrated that we've got a seriously wounded back shoot and the cops aren't making disclosures to de-escalate the emotional reactions that certainly will occur in a number of US cities that are already on fire.

That may mean it can't be justified.

But, I certainly hope it can be.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

100%. Really good point.


That’s why it’s hard to compare an officers reaction to what an of our reaction would be. They have to respond to a situation knowing nothing about it, and tensions are pretty high within the 2 communities as it is, so I completely understand him being on a heightened alert. The only point I was trying to make earlier, and it isn’t even about this officers situation necessarily since I don’t know the facts, is that I don’t believe simply not following orders should be enough justification for deadly force without another factor being present. If he made a verbal threat and reached to the car, sure. If officers saw a weapon in the car, sure. If he physically assaulted the officers and then reached into the car, sure. But just walking away from a conversation, nah, not to me anyway.

Just watched the video again (several times). I still think he made a furtive move just after opening the door but I can't say it's conclusive. Hard to tell if he made the move or was being pushed (or falling) forward.

 

[Cameramonkey]

There just aren't enough facts right now.

Was this a 911 domestic disturbance call? Man with gun? Cops know the guy to be a violent armed individual? Why was the man stopped? Did it have anything at all to do with why they were there?

etc etc etc

There are just way too many unknowns at this moment to really draw any conclusions. But, so far, the man appeared to be unarmed. (If they cops had found a gun in the car within the man's reach...wouldn't they have mentioned this?)

I'm just frustrated that we've got a seriously wounded back shoot and the cops aren't making disclosures to de-escalate the emotional reactions that certainly will occur in a number of US cities that are already on fire.

That may mean it can't be justified.

But, I certainly hope it can be.

Odd. Your attitude in your last handful of posts seems to lean heavily toward "bad cop, no donut" when you just admitted there arent enough facts to say either way.

But I do know this aint the old west, and Wyatt Earps of today dont have to wait for the bad guy to draw or shoot first.

EDIT: and we DO know they attempted less lethal first but that failed. (surprise!) So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Its not like it was "hands up dont shoot."

 

[Alpo]

Don't recharacterize MY view, especially if you intend to piecemeal it to fit your remarks. I'm not on trial here. If you don't have a view of the situation, just pass.

My first post on this thread:

Need a lot more facts to conclude what prompted the escalation to a discharged firearm.

Optics support additional confirmation that police reform is mandatory.

Personally, it certainly looks like the cop is the worst type of coward....but I'll await more facts on the runup to the shoot.