Bad ammo?

[ECS686]

My S&W Airweight is labeled for Jacketed Bullets for this very reason. It is quite lightweight and lead bullets can move out of the cases under recoil.

Usually lead isn’t the issue with bullet jump in revolver rounds. I get the increased risk with small air weights but growing up in the revolver days (as in I carried them for a duty gun) I didn’t see or experienced that with anyone outside one or two shoddy handloads.

 

[Creedmoor]

Wadcutter in a snubby had a proven track record. Several guys ran them in their backup snubs and I know of a couple Memphis guys and a couple I worked with that dropped BG’s with snubbies loaded with wadcutter

It cuts full 38 cal diameter holes in a sternum and gets to the gods without the blast or unreliable/unpredictable performance from a plus p 38

While the wadcutter idea has got ton lost it’s found its way back as more and more folks are learning about it.

I'm well aware,
I'm old enough to remember when the swedged Alberts HBWC had a stem in the hollow base to help them expand when loaded backwards in a 38/357.

 

[Doug]

Usually lead isn’t the issue with bullet jump in revolver rounds. I get the increased risk with small air weights but growing up in the revolver days (as in I carried them for a duty gun) I didn’t see or experienced that with anyone outside one or two shoddy handloads.

Perhaps S&W is just being extra cautious because the titanium framed guns recoil at higher velocity.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Crimp jumping is what I've always heard it called. More of an issue with 9mm revolvers, as traditional revolver cartridges are *supposed* to have enough crimp to stop it from occurring. As you've found out, sometimes it doesn't.

Federal LE .38 SWC if you can find it. Looks like standard pressure is out of stock everywhere and may not even be manufactured any longer. +P is difficult to source, but still exists. https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fed...-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-38g-p-57609.aspx as an example.

I don't know if your revolver is +P rated or not, though I assume you do.

 

[Creedmoor]

None of them reliably expand reliably at 2" barrel, non +P velocities.

I'm pretty sure these have been expanding in snubbies since before I was born.

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[Leo]

I use PPU 158gr SWC in my speed strips as backup ammo. Yesterday, I fired 1/2 a box out of my Charter Arms Off Duty. After firing 2-3 rounds, one of the remaining rounds' bullet moved forward in the case far enough to prevent cylinder rotation. Does this phenomenon have a name? Would you trust this ammo after this? I've put 2 or 3 boxes of this ammo down range. First time this ever happened.

I have owned a Charter Arms Undercover for well over 40 years. I run a cylinder of ammo through it at a regular interval, to keep me tuned up. I have never had that problem with with Jacketed bullets. I also carry more premium ammo.

Like others already said, it is not a Charter Arms issue. 158 gr Lead backs out on S&W, Ruger, and Colt light weight revolvers sometimes too. Probably others, but that is the only snub nose's I ever owned.

 

[ECS686]

I'm pretty sure these have been expanding in snubbies since before I was born.

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Actually he 158 GBI (or name a city load) is iffy in expanding out of 2” Lucky Gunner has a extensive gel testing and most of the various FBI 158 LSWCHP load failed to expand that load is a great in a 4”

All that aside it doesn’t matter what you have if you can’t put in a fist size group in the upper thoracic trac.

 

[Creedmoor]

I have owned a Charter Arms Undercover for well over 40 years. I run a cylinder of ammo through it at a regular interval, to keep me tuned up. I have never had that problem with with Jacketed bullets. I also carry more premium ammo.

Like others already said, it is not a Charter Arms issue. 158 gr Lead backs out on S&W, Ruger, and Colt light weight revolvers sometimes too. Probably others, but that is the only snub nose's I ever owned.

Its always a lead bullet that jumps for me, I've never had a jacketed bullet do it, but I've certainly had more than a few cast/swedged bullets in 357, 41 and 44 mag do it.
Lead is soft and easy to disfigure to allow it to slide in a case compared to a much harder jacketed bullet.

 

[DadSmith]

If Wadcutters are hard to load go with a WFN Keith bullet like the one on the right in this picture.

 

[Bassat]

Actually he 158 GBI (or name a city load) is iffy in expanding out of 2” Lucky Gunner has a extensive gel testing and most of the various FBI 158 LSWCHP load failed to expand that load is a great in a 4”

All that aside it doesn’t matter what you have if you can’t put in a fist size group in the upper thoracic trac.

Very little reliable expansion out of 2" barrel for any ammo. That is why I want something heavy. Placement is king; penetration is the woman behind the throne. If only penetration OR expansion is available, I'll go with penetration, please.

If Wadcutters are hard to load go with a WFN Keith bullet like the one on the right in this picture.

View attachment 357253

Are those hand-loads? If name-brand factory loads, I'm interested. If they are hot enough. Not +P, but at least full-tilt-boogie 38 SPL. The best WCs I've found are Double Tap and Georgia Arms Ultimate defense. Both attain 700+ FPS out of 2" barrels. Fiocchi is often loaded hot. IIRC their 158gr WC clocks in at about 560.

 

[DadSmith]

Very little reliable expansion out of 2" barrel for any ammo. That is why I want something heavy. Placement is king; penetration is the woman behind the throne. If only penetration OR expansion is available, I'll go with penetration, please.

Are those hand-loads? If name-brand factory loads, I'm interested. If they are hot enough. Not +P, but at least full-tilt-boogie 38 SPL. The best WCs I've found are Double Tap and Georgia Arms Ultimate defense. Both attain 700+ FPS out of 2" barrels. Fiocchi is often loaded hot. IIRC their 158gr WC clocks in at about 560.

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This is a Keith bullet but not the same as the above one. This is +p. I wonder if this would have over penetration?

The one I showed you is usually for reloaded. If I had that I'd probably load it on the weak side because it's a heavy for caliber bullet and the risk of over penetration would be high I believe n

 

[Creedmoor]

If Wadcutters are hard to load go with a WFN Keith bullet like the one on the right in this picture.

View attachment 357253

Elmer weeps with that ruger in the background, but he would like your cramps
crimp on his bullet.

 

[WebSnyper]

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This is a Keith bullet but not the same as the above one. This is +p. I wonder if this would have over penetration?

The one I showed you is usually for reloaded. If I had that I'd probably load it on the weak side because it's a heavy for caliber bullet and the risk of over penetration would be high I believe n

I'd think +P out of a 2" would result in a lot of flash, etc but not much additional velocity, but I haven't looked up the facts yet to back that assertion up.

 

[ECS686]

I'd think +P out of a 2" would result in a lot of flash, etc but not much additional velocity, but I haven't looked up the facts yet to back that assertion up.

^^THIS^^

I’d avoid plus p with 2” guns especially air weights you get blast with no benifit

The one exception is the 135 Speer Hold Dot is rated plus O but doesn’t have the blast and seems to reliably expand however I’m stiff an advocate of 148 wadcutters in 2” Gunsi

 

[Tombs]

I'd think +P out of a 2" would result in a lot of flash, etc but not much additional velocity, but I haven't looked up the facts yet to back that assertion up.

Chrono it.

You'll certainly get more out of it. I see this myth stated a lot with short barreled 357 magnums vs 38s, and it's always demonstrably false, if you don't believe it, use a chronograph. You will get more flash of course, but that's the nature of the beast when you want a barrel that short.

Getting into guns that small and with that much of a power deficit, I'd be inclined to go with a wadcutter or SWC instead of relying on expansion anyway. They can still have pretty impressive performance.

As for the OP, if I was carrying a revolver and liked a certain load but had crimp jumping issues, I'd get a lee hand press and a crimp die. You'll want a roll crimp die rather than a taper crimp die. Try not to mash the mouth of the case past rolling over and flattening back out, and you should be good. (If you screw up, it probably won't fit back in the chamber, so don't be afraid of giving it a go.)

 

[Brad69]

You really just need Buffalo bore or underwood for all your lifesaving ammo.

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[Bassat]

^^THIS^^

I’d avoid plus p with 2” guns especially air weights you get blast with no benifit

The one exception is the 135 Speer Hold Dot is rated plus O but doesn’t have the blast and seems to reliably expand however I’m stiff an advocate of 148 wadcutters in 2” Gunsi

Agreed. I went to the MFR for data on the +P Hard Cast 158gr Underwood ammo. They claim 1250 fps. 158gr @ 1250 is game ammo out of a 6" barrel, most likely. It is not anti-personnel out of a 2" barrel. It is a lot of flash and a lot of recoil; neither being conducive to accurate follow up shots. Hard pass on that one.

The Federal Train & Protect doesn't expand - at all - out of a 4" barrel. It field tests at 746 fps out of a 4" barrel. 2" would be slower, perhaps under 700. Both the Double Tap and Georgia Arms 148gr WC test at 720+ out of 2". I like both of those for my primary (in the cylinder) ammo. Neither works for crap in a speed strip.

Also looked at Buffalo Bore. NOT IN A CHARTER ARMS 2"! I will shoot the rest of my PPU and hope this was a one-off incident. In the meantime, I'll pick up a box of Critical Defense. It does not reliably expand from 2". It has two things going for it. It is available, and it works well w/speedstrips.

 

[DadSmith]

I'd think +P out of a 2" would result in a lot of flash, etc but not much additional velocity, but I haven't looked up the facts yet to back that assertion up.

I wouldn't use it as well, but it's the only factory load with a Keith type bullet in 38 Special.

I prefer Wadcutters, or a heavy for caliber WFN bullet loaded at the minimal powder load.

 

[Bassat]

I wouldn't use it as well, but it's the only factory load with a Keith type bullet in 38 Special.

I prefer Wadcutters, or a heavy for caliber WFN bullet loaded at the minimal powder load.

Do you load your own SD ammo? I don't reload, but if I did, I'd be afraid some DA would accuse me of making some kind of Death-Ray Killer ammo. I'd use reloads for practice, but not for SD.

 

[DadSmith]

Do you load your own SD ammo? I don't reload, but if I did, I'd be afraid some DA would accuse me of making some kind of Death-Ray Killer ammo. I'd use reloads for practice, but not for SD.

It would be hard to prove my HST loads aren't factory. I use FC nickel plated brass, and 147gr HST bullets.
Overall I'm not worried about the DA part. If I survive it will be worthwhile.
Only thing I'd be worried about in a self-defense situation is over penetration, and hitting an innocent bystander. So with that in mind I use the best HP on the market today.
That is in my 9mm.
10mm I use XTP, Gold Dot, or HST both expand well in a 10mm.
45acp HST.

Now in a 38 Special snub i think the 148gr Wadcutters fits that bill nicely. Good penetration without over penetration.