AR barrel break in?

[churchmouse]

It seems to make sense for new metal to heat and cool to seat correctly etc. What I don't understand is the need for cleaning between shots...

That is a personal thing. I do my deal in a way that works for me. I have a buddy that cleans the bore on his rifles after a hunt that he never fires a shot. He enjoys loving on the gun. I get it. I may run an oily bore snake down mine if the weather is crap or I fell down and possibly got some dirt in the barrel.
If you buy one and open up the box, load it up and run the snot out of it from the start that is just fine. I don't want it after that abuse but if you paid for it, run it as you want. Do you treat your cars that way, wouldn't want one of those either. That is just my humble opinion right or wrong.

 

[nickman54]

I have never broken in a barrel. I have never owned a rifle that was for competition though. I do have some rifles that shoot under an inch at 100 that i never broke in though. I guess that is good enough for me. To be honest i couldnt hold a 2 " group with anything i have at 300 yards because i cant shoot that good, and i get intimidated at anything over 200.

 

[churchmouse]

I have never broken in a barrel. I have never owned a rifle that was for competition though. I do have some rifles that shoot under an inch at 100 that i never broke in though. I guess that is good enough for me. To be honest i couldnt hold a 2 " group with anything i have at 300 yards because i cant shoot that good, and i get intimidated at anything over 200.

Just remember that it is not shooting back........

The guns we are debating are semi-auto battle rifles. AR-15's and M-4's. They were designed to spray but the debate is to breaking in the barrel or not. My bolt guns get shot in as well but never get run hard.

 

[teddy12b]

I've read of people buying used or older guns and doing a barrel break just to get the gun at a clean starting point. In that case I don't think its a bad idea to for a very serious cleaning followed by a barrel break in procedure.

 

[abnk]

Getting ready to initiate my PSA Hammer forged and DPMS pencil uppers. DPMS sent a card about the break in, saying to clean barrel after every round for the first dozen or so, then every 10 after that up to 200 rounds.
When I got my sweet PSA upper, I was so excited, I wanted to do a quick cleaning. Massive brain fart, I inserted cleaning brush from the muzzle.
The rod/brush didnt go in so easy and had a hard time on the way out. Got paranoid and have been looking down the barrel with flashlight for damage. I must remind myself it is a hammer forged, chrome lined barrel, hope I didnt bone up the muzzle...

Anyway, is ther a need to observe a break in? And what is proper cleaning method? I have a bore snake on order.

Yes, your barrel is unfortunately damaged beyond repair. I see it all the time with new guys. Just send it to me for proper disposal.

As mentioned above, it's chrome-lined. It does not need broken in.

 

[bobbittle]

Arrrggghhhh. I read a great article about this a couple days ago but can't find it now. Wish I had bookmarked it. Basically came down to being completely not needed.

 

[churchmouse]

Arrrggghhhh. I read a great article about this a couple days ago but can't find it now. Wish I had bookmarked it. Basically came down to being completely not needed.

I would like to read that if you can find a link. It will not change what I do as I am an old dog but always pen to new ideas.

 

[qualitytym]

Yes, your barrel is unfortunately damaged beyond repair. I see it all the time with new guys. Just send it to me for proper disposal.

As mentioned above, it's chrome-lined. It does not need broken in.

Dang, I guess I'll have to pitch it in the recycling bin.

 

[jackadew]

I choose to break-in all my barrels, handgun, longgun, hammer-forged, stainless, chrome-lined. Not just from the accuracy stand point, but for the ease of cleaning down the road. But don't take my word. It doesn't take that long to do...try it for yourself.

 

[JTinIN]

The story goes on barrel break in that you are trying to get the various small and near microscopic tool marks smoothed out with out allowing the copper from the bullet jacket to built up in the barrel and chamber lead in. If you don't clean every few shots (depending on the intended accuracy and construction of the rifle) then you will either not break in the barrel as quickly or in theory can cause minor damage (see follow on).

A custom or semi custom barrel intended for maximum accuracy (very sub MOA) will tend to be lapped, however, still needs break in to a varying degree depending on use and construction. See Break-In & Cleaning

However, all of this depends on the accuracy you are after and barrel construction. Thus for a 1 MOA to 3 MOA main battle rifle used for full auto (which I also like see http://www.556beltfed.com/) or high speed semi auto fire (i.e. barrel and gas tube heating color changes), break in is probable less of a factor, in particular with a chrome lined barrel ;-), but it is still best practice to at least do an initially cleaning of the barrel and chamber to remove any manufacturing residue or chips. Additional when doing the initial wear in, best practice is to go a little slow until you see how everything is working (i.e. if you have a high spot that will wear in, one tends to be best to smooth out operation before going all out for long time periods and develop local spot wear / heating) and easier to get warranty work for accuracy issues if there is not a discolored gas tube and barrel (once the temperature is up, barrel wear is much higher ... the pretty sparks on extended full auto fire is one's barrel).

Regards
John

Follow On - Possible Negative Effects of Copper Build Up

The copper build up can have potential negative effects ranging from covering the various tool marks and keeping the tool marks from smoothing out; causing more copper build up (i.e the tiny lump/smear of copper wipes which in turn wipes off more copper for each bullet that passes); as the copper builds up the effects can become worst (i.e. larger / more lumps / smears of copper) and result in reduced accuracy due to interaction with the bullet; the built up of copper also traps the carbon and particles of firing which in turn can be abrasive; copper remaining in the bore can with time and moisture allow corrosion under and at the edge of the copper; with long term usage the wear on the rifle bore can be uneven due to copper build up as the copper protects part of the bore under it from wearing but the copper does not totally wear away since the copper tends to be replaced by smears from the jacket of each bullet passing over the lump or smear of copper, additionally the region of the bore across from the copper lump or smear maybe exposed to wear.

Thus for best accuracy, the best practice is to break in the barrel (possible lapping) while keeping the copper build up to a minimum and once you have smooth bore and chamber lead in, the copper build up will tend to be less.

Load Development Target for Compass Lake Engineering Match Upper with Single Loaded (i.e. too long for mag).
Fired after twenty plus rounds from a warm (for a match rifle barrel) due to end of day and failing light (rifle already broke in).
The white tape cover the Wolf 75gr ammo use to adjust the scope during initial shooting that day.

 

[churchmouse]

The story goes on barrel break in that you are trying to get the various small and near microscopic tool marks smoothed out with out allowing the copper from the bullet jacket to built up in the barrel and chamber lead in. If you don't clean every few shots (depending on the intended accuracy and construction of the rifle) then you will either not break in the barrel as quickly or in theory can cause minor damage (see follow on).

A custom or semi custom barrel intended for maximum accuracy (very sub MOA) will tend to be lapped, however, still needs break in to a varying degree depending on use and construction. See Break-In & Cleaning

However, all of this depends on the accuracy you are after and barrel construction. Thus for a 1 MOA to 3 MOA main battle rifle used for full auto (which I also like see 556beltfed.com) or high speed semi auto fire (i.e. barrel and gas tube heating color changes), break in is probable less of a factor, in particular with a chrome lined barrel ;-), but it is still best practice to at least do an initially cleaning of the barrel and chamber to remove any manufacturing residue or chips. Additional when doing the initial wear in, best practice is to go a little slow until you see how everything is working (i.e. if you have a high spot that will wear in, one tends to be best to smooth out operation before going all out for long time periods and develop local spot wear / heating) and easier to get warranty work for accuracy issues if there is not a discolored gas tube and barrel (once the temperature is up, barrel wear is much higher ... the pretty sparks on extended full auto fire is one's barrel).

Regards
John

Follow On - Possible Negative Effects of Copper Build Up

The copper build up can have potential negative effects ranging from covering the various tool marks and keeping the tool marks from smoothing out; causing more copper build up (i.e the tiny lump/smear of copper wipes which in turn wipes off more copper for each bullet that passes); as the copper builds up the effects can become worst (i.e. larger / more lumps / smears of copper) and result in reduced accuracy due to interaction with the bullet; the built up of copper also traps the carbon and particles of firing which in turn can be abrasive; copper remaining in the bore can with time and moisture allow corrosion under and at the edge of the copper; with long term usage the wear on the rifle bore can be uneven due to copper build up as the copper protects part of the bore under it from wearing but the copper does not totally wear away since the copper tends to be replaced by smears from the jacket of each bullet passing over the lump or smear of copper, additionally the region of the bore across from the copper lump or smear maybe exposed to wear.

Thus for best accuracy, the best practice is to break in the barrel (possible lapping) while keeping the copper build up to a minimum and once you have smooth bore and chamber lead in, the copper build up will tend to be less.

Load Development Target for Compass Lake Engineering Match Upper with Single Loaded (i.e. too long for mag).
Fired after twenty plus rounds from a warm (for a match rifle barrel) due to end of day and failing light (rifle already broke in).
The white tape cover the Wolf 75gr ammo use to adjust the scope during initial shooting that day.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you.......Beware buying used AR's.


Also beware of used AR's that have been subjected to cheap crap steel ammo......If you can not afford the mileage, do not buy a hot rod......

 

[JTinIN]

Shoot a lot of Wolf Steel ammo in my Tittle II toys as at half the price I can afford to change an extractor or two (have not had to yet) and barrels tend to wear out anyway after a few dozen cases of ammo ....

What I found interesting is the Wolf ammo shoots a lot better than Federal XM193 (several different lots as have gone through dozens of cases of ammo of Federal ... ) and ended up swapping the half dozen cases of Wolf for "blasting" with the Federal XM193 as the Wolf was more accurate in several scopes AR15 uppers .....

 

[churchmouse]

Shoot a lot of Wolf Steel ammo in my Tittle II toys as at half the price I can afford to change an extractor or two (have not had to yet) and barrels tend to wear out anyway after a few dozen cases of ammo ....

What I found interesting is the Wolf ammo shoots a lot better than Federal XM193 (several different lots as have gone through dozens of cases of ammo of Federal ... ) and ended up swapping the half dozen cases of Wolf for "blasting" with the Federal XM193 as the Wolf was more accurate in several scopes AR15 uppers .....

I have stopped buying federal for that reason. They are weak at best and not consistent. I am just not going to put crap ammo through any of AR's. We tried some awhile back in the DPMS. Steel cased Russian crap with bad results. Just not the right thing for us. Yes, you will wash out a barrel after a few thousand rds. I have logged 6 K through a pre ban Colt and it still hits hard and straight. I just do not use them for ammo hoses. I do mag dumps on all of them but I have a butt load of money in my AR's (even the DPMS is full of hot rod parts) and can not justify sending bad ammo down the bore. If I want to shoot cheap I get out the .22 LR pieces but even they get CCI mini mags. I take good care of all the pieces we have worked hard to collect and we shoot the snot out of all of them. We just do not cut corners on the rds. we send through them. Just does not make sense to us.
Have fun with your guns. Enjoy.

 

[lucky4034]

On a bolt action rifle, yeah I'll go through the cleaning process and scrub out the barrel.

On an AR that's meant to run like an AR I use this procedure to break in the barrel:
1 Insert magazine
2 Flip selector from safe to semi
3 Bang bang bang bang bang, bang bang bang bang bang, bang bang bang bang bang, bang bang bang bang bang, bang bang bang bang bang, bang bang bang bang bang.
4 Flip selector back on safe
5 Repeat

Repped for taking the initiative to type (or at least copy pasta) exactly 30 "bangs"

 

[JTinIN]

I have stopped buying federal for that reason. They are weak at best and not consistent. I am just not going to put crap ammo through any of AR's. We tried some awhile back in the DPMS. Steel cased Russian crap with bad results. Just not the right thing for us. Yes, you will wash out a barrel after a few thousand rds. I have logged 6 K through a pre ban Colt and it still hits hard and straight. I just do not use them for ammo hoses. I do mag dumps on all of them but I have a butt load of money in my AR's (even the DPMS is full of hot rod parts) and can not justify sending bad ammo down the bore. If I want to shoot cheap I get out the .22 LR pieces but even they get CCI mini mags. I take good care of all the pieces we have worked hard to collect and we shoot the snot out of all of them. We just do not cut corners on the rds. we send through them. Just does not make sense to us.
Have fun with your guns. Enjoy.

What are you shooting now days for ammo?

 

[churchmouse]

What are you shooting now days for ammo?

I have had really good luck with PMC Bronze and Remington UMC for just plinking. Both brands in .55 gr. These both are available at a reasonable price on line and Bradis II sells them in bulk at times.
Some think the UMC fires dirty but they work well in my guns and have a significant bark and hit a lot harder then the Federal mentioned in this thread.
Again, I realize how expensive ammo has become and the motivation to keep the cost of shooting inside a given budget. I look at my guns as hot rods and take care of them as such.

Enjoy........

 

[teddy12b]

I think it's possible to get the best of both worlds out of this. I don't consider myself to be a guy who abuses a rifle, but when I built my delton dissipator I wanted to make sure that it'd work as an AR should if I ever needed it to. So I took 10 30rd mags of my handloaded 69gr match ammo and adjusted the zero for 300 yards. Once I got on it, I fired shot after shot as fast as I could get back on a 300 yard target. The rifle functioned just the way it should and of course it got hot, but it also stayed on target. Then again I like rifles with heavy barrels just for that reason.

There's some truth in not buying a used AR though unless you know the person has just kept it in the closet since purchase. The last thing I'd buy would be a thin pencil barreled AR that used to have a slide fire stock on it or something like that. I think with a extremely thorough cleaning you bring a barrel back up to par within reason, and I wouldn't avoid every used AR on the market though either just because it was ran the way they were meant to be ran.

 

[JTinIN]

Interesting how things change, as fifteen years ago the PMC ammo was the low end stuff and over the same time frame had given up on Remington UMC on subguns due to being under power (have seen several open bolt subguns that would run continue firing when you released the trigger ... not a good think during a match ;-) and Remington rifle ammo in general due to multiple issues with accuracy (i.e. Rifle use to shoot ok, well under 2 MOA and in some cases under 1 MOA, when you used Remington the groups opened up to 4 MOA plus).

More recently have had friends who have had issues with a few of the other brands of ammo except for Wolf & S&B (i.e. Tittle II guns damaged or destroyed) ... and in some cases you can shoot Wolf or S&B in their guns and not most of the ammo made in the USA (or at least sold by old line US companies).

One of the guys fires a lot of 223 for high power and they checked the variation of primers and after checking nearly the entire line from everyone, found Wolf primers the best and order a 100K for the year (his bunch shoots a lot of 223 ;-).

Interesting thread and thanks for the discussion.

Regards
John

P.S. I always figured the barrel was an expendable part of the gun ;-)

 

[churchmouse]

Yes on both of the last threads. It is hard to stay with one manuf. as things change. I use Rem. UMC in my pistols as well. They are so hot in my .44 Mag that it sounds like a field artillery piece as compared to other rounds I have used in it. The real answer here is to load your own, smoke-em if you got-em. The PMC rds. I acquired this year are very consistent at least out of my guns.

I am one who try's to get every ounce of usable time from everything I build, buy, etc.
My son and I ran a 2 car drag racing team for many years on our own nickel. We build monster H.P. but want the engines to last more than one season without catastrophic failure. We tuned them down and lowered the launch and shift point RPM's to get all the life they had to give. Instead of ringing out the big block to 7800 every pass we ran it to 7000 and shorter if we were wining that round. Same with the small block. We could turn up the levels at will for given events and did so when needed. Just an example of how I do things. Yes, barrels are like rings and bearings in a race motor. They can be replaced. I just like to do it as little as possible while still getting all the benefits.
Spray with them if you want to. Enjoy...............

 

[Aaronhome27]

I know Rock River was not the subject of this thread. But, I just received my new RRA chrome moly (not chrome lined) and it comes with a card that states the following. Is this common? I was a bit surprised to say the least.