.22 For a Carry?

[rimfireOH]

For me, .22 LR is for practice, fun and chipmunks. Sometimes all three at once.

 

[Captaincrunk]

Barriers aren't just doors and windshields. For non-LEO, the most common is probably a forearm. Bad guy has a gun extended, good guy is focused on the gun, and his rounds strike the bad guy's arm before his torso, sometimes the gun itself is hit. I've seen at least two magazine floor plates shot off...

That said, windshield testing is also a very good way to predict how a bullet reacts to bone and for that reason I value the full FBI protocol even if shooting into/out of cars isn't likely.

12 inches of ballistic gel through 4 layers of heavy denim properly simulates going through forearms. If you do research you can. Find .380 ammo that will penetrate past 12 inches consistently.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

12 inches of ballistic gel through 4 layers of heavy denim properly simulates going through forearms.

No, it doesn't. It does not simulate a bone strike of any kind and does not allow for an "air gap" for tumbling and for fragmentation to spread out.

There's plenty of .380 ammo that will consistently penetrate beyond 12". S&B FMJ will. Again, though, finding one that will both penetrate AND expand as well as be barrier blind...that's a different question.

 

[Cameramonkey]

12 inches of ballistic gel through 4 layers of heavy denim properly simulates going through forearms. If you do research you can. Find .380 ammo that will penetrate past 12 inches consistently.

No, it doesn't. It does not simulate a bone strike of any kind and does not allow for an "air gap" for tumbling and for fragmentation to spread out.

There's plenty of .380 ammo that will consistently penetrate beyond 12". S&B FMJ will. Again, though, finding one that will both penetrate AND expand as well as be barrier blind...that's a different question.

Crunk, you DO realize you are arguing with an experienced professional? BBI knows his stuff as this is his life as a LEO.

His professional experience is much more accurate than some rando youtuber and the info we glean from them. (Ammoquest does have good info in general on the .380, but regardless of that, its still not as effective as 9mm)

 

[Alamo]

Yes.

As an aside, and I have mentioned this incident elsewhere, a new attorney at my firm, when she was working for another firm in Louisville, got attacked in a parking garage. She fought the guy off and shot him with her .380, which ended the attack. However, she now carries a 9mm because she saw how the guy was able to get up and run away after being shot with the .380, including a hit in the neck.

It was kinda big news in Louisville at the time and she has since done commercials for the NRA.

Was that this incident? https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-knife-attacker-neck.html?408728=#post6420146

 

[Captaincrunk]

No, it doesn't. It does not simulate a bone strike of any kind and does not allow for an "air gap" for tumbling and for fragmentation to spread out.

There's plenty of .380 ammo that will consistently penetrate beyond 12". S&B FMJ will. Again, though, finding one that will both penetrate AND expand as well as be barrier blind...that's a different question.

And that is why I said you do your research and posted some helpful videos showing expansion rates and penetration depth through both bare gel and 4 layers of denim. Maybe you should watch them.

Crunk, you DO realize you are arguing with an experienced professional? BBI knows his stuff as this is his life as a LEO.

His professional experience is much more accurate than some rando youtuber and the info we glean from them. (Ammoquest does have good info in general on the .380, but regardless of that, its still not as effective as 9mm)

Whether or not something else might be even better isn't the question. The question is whether there are guns and loads that are viable defensive carry options. And from the testing some .380 rounds both penetrate past 12 inches of gel and expand well, even though a majority of brands/bullets don't. I have no doubt that people get up and run from .380 hits, but they also do that from .45 hits. Anecdotes, even from a cop, are still anecdotes. The testing shows it pretty well. You might look at the testing and think "Hey, that doesn't account for such and such" but all that does is give you a reason to try different testing methods to account for those issues.

 

[HoughMade]

Was that this incident? https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-knife-attacker-neck.html?408728=#post6420146

Yes, I guess it was a .32, not a .380....either way. Her identity is apparently no secret:

[video=youtube;mBFyabDJ0nY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBFyabDJ0nY[/video]

Anyhoo, she carries a S&W M&P Shield 9mm now.

 

[VERT]

And that is why I said you do your research and posted some helpful videos showing expansion rates and penetration depth through both bare gel and 4 layers of denim. Maybe you should watch them.

I am normally pretty easy on the new guys, so I am going to give you some advice. After all, INGO is a great place to learn. Listen to BBI and Coach.

Now I will be a little more pointed. .380 pocket guns suck. This thread started about .22 and it is my fault it moved onto pocket guns. But they suck. .22, .25, .32, .380 suck. If it is a semi auto and has a barrel less then 3” and fits in your pocket it sucks. In fact all handguns suck, but service calibers suck a lot less. You can justify your poor decision to carry a pocket .380 however you want but it doesn’t change the facts. I have never seen a gel block in real life, we don’t shoot gel. If you like your little gun then carry on. If you carry it because you don’t know better I just helped you. If you carry it because it’s easy then that is lazy but ultimately your choice. If you carry it because you have no other option then you are doing to best you can and I applaud your efforts and decision.

 

[Brad69]

I think .22 LR is great for a woods, tackle box, practice Weapon.

I personally despise the.380,.32,.25 pocket pistols for many reasons.

My personal advise is nothing smaller than a .38 semi wadcutter or 9 mm.

BBI changed my view on the .22 mag for defense based on his real world experience.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense/

 

[Alamo]

Yes, I guess it was a .32, not a .380....either way. Her identity is apparently no secret:

.

Speaking of lawyers and .32s and gelatin and real flesh and bone and shot placement and such, here's an anecdote...

... at the same time I this thread was (is) running I was googling around looking for a local lawyer for a local nonprofit I am in. When I put in the name of one of the local lawyers I was surprised to find a story from 15+ years ago where he and another lawyer were both shot in their office by an unhappy opposing client. One lawyer was shot twice, once in the side after which he managed to climb or leap over a computer printer table and escape, catching another bullet below his right shoulder blade on the way out. He was able to run next door and have someone call for cops and EMS. He survived but lost his spleen and part of his liver. The other lawyer was shot three times and ended up on the floor. He survived as well, but in a wheel chair for the rest of his life. (The shooter was captured just down the street and he and his lady friend who helped him and egged him on (to which she testified in court!) were both convicted of attempted capital murder. He got life and is still in a Texas prison. She got considerably less, and appears to not be incarcerated any more.)

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe you should watch them.

I'm familiar with the channel, but don't put a lot of faith in amateur testing. I've got access to info from professional labs that isn't readily accessible to the public. No .380 that has been tested has passed the full battery of FBI tests. If I were going to carry a .380, I'd forget expansion and just run hot ball. S&B will break an adult's femur and penetrate deeply in soft tissue. It will not do both.

Maybe you should watch them.

Anecdotes, even from a cop, are still anecdotes.

Sure...but hundreds of anecdotes and you can see patterns and gain useful information and "hundreds" is literally how many people I've seen shot and worked their cases as a detective.

You might look at the testing and think "Hey, that doesn't account for such and such" but all that does is give you a reason to try different testing methods to account for those issues..

There's no reason to reinvent the wheel, except for entertainment and to make those YouTube dollars. The FBI testing protocol accounts for those variables. Which is why I said the auto glass is relevant even if you aren't shooting through windshields because it also shows pretty accurately how a given round does against bone. About the only relevant variable that isn't tested is deflection angle, how easy it is for the bullet to glance off round bone. Wadcutter profiles and most HP rounds resist this, though, as the shoulder will dig in. Ball ammo that doesn't deform is easier to deflect, and the result is sometimes a bullet that rides the skull or a rib around, just under the skin, but never penetrates the bone into organs.

Penetration matters more than expansion, and until you've got reliable penetration in at least 4LD, heavy clothes, and auto glass tests I'm not interested and will stick with non-expanding ammo that can get that penetration requirement.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I am normally pretty easy on the new guys, so I am going to give you some advice. After all, INGO is a great place to learn. Listen to BBI and Coach.

Now I will be a little more pointed. .380 pocket guns suck. This thread started about .22 and it is my fault it moved onto pocket guns. But they suck. .22, .25, .32, .380 suck.

Thanks.

Now, as a reminder:

.22 sucks.
.25 sucks.
.32 is the floor for a reliable suicide gun, but can result in flopping around for awhile, so watch your angles.
.380 is the floor for defense, but straddles that line where expanding ammo sometimes expands, sometimes doesn't, and I'd still recommend ball at this point.
.38, depending on barrel length and pressure (standard or +P) may expand or may not. For snubbies with standard pressure, wadcutters or semiwadcutters make a lot of sense. For longer barrels and +P you can get reasonable performance with expanding ammo.
9mm, .40, .45: Pick a heavy for caliber cartridge your gun likes, that's bonded or otherwise treated to avoid fragmentation and to retain weight, and call it a day.
.357 Sig/10mm: Lots of boutique rounds out there over driving the bullet to make impressive energy numbers for the side of the box. Over driven bullets make messy, but shallow injuries. Do your research on what speed envelope the bullet is designed for, and choose ammo loaded to give velocities in that range from your barrel.
.44 special: Not a large sample size, but I've not been impressed.
.44 magnum: Ouch. I ever tell you about the guy who lost a testicle and got a new butt hole from the same .44 bullet?
.357 magnum: Bullet selection matters, probably the most common over penetration round I've seen. Like through and through the chest, through a security door, through an exterior door, through an interior wall, and embedded in a door header type of over penetration. Please don't use hot hard cast in an urban environment.

I also completely get some people have physical limitations and need a smaller and gentler cartridge. It will *probably* work out for them. At least 30% of gun fights could be won with a starter pistol, the noise and flash alone put the bad guy to flight. It's the one who needs physically stopped, and that's much more common in targeted violence such as domestics, that a good bullet can really start to matter.

 

[jkdbjj]

I think it is a fair consensus...if you have something bigger available, carry it. However, the .22 rimfire can be a very nasty round, even when fired from a very short barrel. The injuries caused to 3 of the 4 men shot by John Hinckley are detailed in the article at the link. The 4th man, a police officer, was retired due to disability following the shooting and emergency surgery.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2011/03/10/the-saving-of-the-president/

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think it is a fair consensus...if you have something bigger available, carry it. However, the .22 rimfire can be a very nasty round, even when fired from a very short barrel. The injuries caused to 3 of the 4 men shot by John Hinckley are detailed in the article at the link. The 4th man, a police officer, was retired due to disability following the shooting and emergency surgery.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2011/03/10/the-saving-of-the-president/

Nasty injuries and disabling an attacker are different things. Note the President was lung shot. Even after being driven to the hospital he could walk. He could still talk. He felt bad...essentially degraded but not disabled until well after the shooting.

 

[jkdbjj]

Nasty injuries and disabling an attacker are different things. Note the President was lung shot. Even after being driven to the hospital he could walk. He could still talk. He felt bad...essentially degraded but not disabled until well after the shooting.

True. Some talk that the President was hit with a ricochet, but still, the injuries were what they were. Although none of those shot were attackers (they were attacked), 3 of 4 were down when shot. Thankfully, they all survived.

 

[indiucky]

It was kinda big news in Louisville at the time and she has since done commercials for the NRA.

Yes it was.....

 

[indiucky]

I am normally pretty easy on the new guys, so I am going to give you some advice. After all, INGO is a great place to learn. Listen to BBI and Coach.

This.....

I am an arrogant SOB...Especially when it comes to firearms...I am older than BBI....Been around firearms longer than BBI.....and about equal on the suave chart with BBI....With that being said...

ANY....And I mean ANY advice on the subject of self defense with firearms I get from BBI is answered with a humble, "Yes sir...Thank you for sharing your wisdom with someone such as myself....."

BBI is like Rainman when it comes to real world scenarios regarding disagreements among armed folks and the results thereafter....IMHO he is the natural successor to Massad Ayoob and I look forward to the day his wisdom goes into print so folks outside of INGO can pay to get what he so graciously and patiently offers here gratis.....I do not know Coach but based on vert's words I would imagine he is the same....

I had an old book on bullet wounds and stats come in the shop and the next time I saw BBI I said, "Hey brother....This forensic journal from the 60's about gun shot wounds came in the shop and I thought you could put it in your.....Dude...Are you crying?????"

"No....I just...This is the most thoughtful gift......"

I exaggerate...He never actually cried but he did well up....

The point being....BBI knows his stuff....Listen to him.....

 

[Expat]

Yeah... well.... I have watched a lot of TV shows/.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I exaggerate...He never actually cried but he did well up....

I told you your shop was extra dusty that day. And the sun was in my eyes. And I'd just chopped some onions.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Thanks.

Now, as a reminder:

.22 sucks.
.25 sucks.
.32 is the floor for a reliable suicide gun, but can result in flopping around for awhile, so watch your angles.
.380 is the floor for defense, but straddles that line where expanding ammo sometimes expands, sometimes doesn't, and I'd still recommend ball at this point.
.38, depending on barrel length and pressure (standard or +P) may expand or may not. For snubbies with standard pressure, wadcutters or semiwadcutters make a lot of sense. For longer barrels and +P you can get reasonable performance with expanding ammo.
9mm, .40, .45: Pick a heavy for caliber cartridge your gun likes, that's bonded or otherwise treated to avoid fragmentation and to retain weight, and call it a day.
.357 Sig/10mm: Lots of boutique rounds out there over driving the bullet to make impressive energy numbers for the side of the box. Over driven bullets make messy, but shallow injuries. Do your research on what speed envelope the bullet is designed for, and choose ammo loaded to give velocities in that range from your barrel.
.44 special: Not a large sample size, but I've not been impressed.
.44 magnum: Ouch. I ever tell you about the guy who lost a testicle and got a new butt hole from the same .44 bullet?
.357 magnum: Bullet selection matters, probably the most common over penetration round I've seen. Like through and through the chest, through a security door, through an exterior door, through an interior wall, and embedded in a door header type of over penetration. Please don't use hot hard cast in an urban environment.

I also completely get some people have physical limitations and need a smaller and gentler cartridge. It will *probably* work out for them. At least 30% of gun fights could be won with a starter pistol, the noise and flash alone put the bad guy to flight. It's the one who needs physically stopped, and that's much more common in targeted violence such as domestics, that a good bullet can really start to matter.

RE: The .32, suicide and angles.

I was once investigating a suicide with a .32 where I couldn't account for a bloody thumbprint on the styrofoam insert from the box of cartridges. How could the guy have handled the box AFTER he put one in his head?

I finally figured out that the guy had put the gun in his mouth at too steep of an angle, fired, and put one up between his eyes and out through his frontal lobe WITHOUT fatal results (the bullet hole in the ceiling fan blade above his head told the tale). He ejected the magazine, got a loose round from the box, put it in the chamber and tried again with the desired result.

I've wondered ever since what it must have been like for that guy to discharge a handgun inside his mouth and continue to live, even for a few seconds. It must have been pretty close to sucking on a propane torch.