Yes, There are 4 Rules: Man Charged for Involuntary Manslaughter

[ATM]

Why?

I'm glad you asked.

Because I handle guns safely rather than unsafely.

Others handle guns as if they're loaded rather than unloaded.

Those others invariably cry, "...but I thought it was unloaded!" when tragedy occurs.

The first group is poised to ask, "So what? Why were you handling it unsafely?"

Simple. Concise. Effective.

Three.

 

[2A_Tom]

But, why?

 

[ATM]

But, why?

Because I want those I teach to succeed.

 

[2A_Tom]

How can you say that you handle an unloaded weapon safely? Can an unloaded weapon hurt you or someone else? By handeling a chunk of metal or plastic safely mean you don't swing it around on a rope and hit people with it? You don't slap folks up sude of the head with it (no matter how much you would like to hit me right now). Do you mean you don't put your finger on the trigger? Why? What would happen if you put your finger on the trigger? How is it safe to not pot your finger of the trigger of a weapon that is not loaded? Do you not point it? If it is not loaded how is it not safe to point it? This makes no sense. I am supposed to know my target and what is beyond it, but I am not even planning on shooting the gun, THE D*** THING IS NOT EVEN LOADED.

WHY?

 

[ATM]

How can you say that you handle an unloaded weapon safely? Can an unloaded weapon hurt you or someone else? By handeling a chunk of metal or plastic safely mean you don't swing it around on a rope and hit people with it? You don't slap folks up sude of the head with it (no matter how much you would like to hit me right now). Do you mean you don't put your finger on the trigger? Why? What would happen if you put your finger on the trigger? How is it safe to not pot your finger of the trigger of a weapon that is not loaded? Do you not point it? If it is not loaded how is it not safe to point it? This makes no sense. I am supposed to know my target and what is beyond it, but I am not even planning on shooting the gun, THE D*** THING IS NOT EVEN LOADED.

You may not be planning to shoot the gun but you must be ready for it to perform the job it was designed to do (gun's only got one job) when you handle it. You must mitigate the consequences of being wrong before it happens. Always. Just handle guns safely.

WHY?

Because I love people and don't want them to suffer the consequences of a poor choice I could have impacted.

 

[2A_Tom]

So are you saying even though you dropped the magazine, racked the slide and both visually and physically checked the chamber, that you could be mistaken and there could actually be a negligent discharge.

Then are you not actually handling the gun as if it were loaded.

 

[ATM]

So are you saying even though you dropped the magazine, racked the slide and both visually and physically checked the chamber, that you could be mistaken and there could actually be a negligent discharge.

Yes.

Then are you not actually handling the gun as if it were loaded.

I am actually handling the gun safely.

You don't like that word, do you? Safely.

You keep wanting to substitute 'as if it were loaded' for the word 'safely'.

WHY???

 

[2A_Tom]

A, I am having fun. Did you see this thread, https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...pistol-caliber-carbine-meet-shoot-feeler.html

I am hoping to make it and if you do I'd like to buy you a sammich.

I think we can say that we each handle guns safely, but will never agree on 3/4. Have a great day.

 

[ATM]

A, I am having fun. Did you see this thread, https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...pistol-caliber-carbine-meet-shoot-feeler.html

I am hoping to make it and if you do I'd like to buy you a sammich.

I think we can say that we each handle guns safely, but will never agree on 3/4. Have a great day.

Always enjoyable, trying to give the readers that bothered to read that other thread a bit of new material rather than just quoting myself from it.

You all know how I hate quoting myself, right?

I'll check out the event in that thread, always up for meeting good folks.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;KTuYS857lOE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTuYS857lOE[/video]

 

[308jake]

There were people who believed the Earth was flat too.

 

[ATM]

*yay, a video already addressed in that other thread*

What will you do when you run out of other people's flawed crap to parrot? The case has been made, it's over. Time to lead.

Take me off your ignore list and let's do this as individuals. Would you care for a shovel? Some rope?

 

[2A_Tom]

Take you off my ignore list? Then I would have to put up with all of the misinfo you spew!

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

Any chance we could get back on topic? 3 rules vs 4 rules. Let's discuss the subject instead of each other. It's easy to get sucked in, I'm guilty of it as well. Just remember that a great many of these threads are read and evaluated by people who never post on them. That being said, make a compelling argument, speak to the general audience, we all want the same thing. Safe firearm training. I read back through my posts in the other thread and I apologize to Jetta knight and 308 jake as I was rude, my bad. I'm super competitive and felt challenged. Doesn't make it right. I consider all of my law abiding 2a brothers and sisters a part of a sovereign front against gun grabbers and tyranny in general. Now more than ever we need to have a united front, despite disagreements. Just remember that you can win a debate, but lose the credibility of your message because you are not being a good messenger. 2 cents. Happy shooting.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Take you off my ignore list? Then I would have to put up with all of the misinfo you spew!

 

[2A_Tom]

Any chance we could get back on topic? 3 rules vs 4 rules. Let's discuss the subject instead of each other. It's easy to get sucked in, I'm guilty of it as well. Just remember that a great many of these threads are read and evaluated by people who never post on them. That being said, make a compelling argument, speak to the general audience, we all want the same thing. Safe firearm training. I read back through my posts in the other thread and I apologize to Jetta knight and 308 jake as I was rude, my bad. I'm super competitive and felt challenged. Doesn't make it right. I consider all of my law abiding 2a brothers and sisters a part of a sovereign front against gun grabbers and tyranny in general. Now more than ever we need to have a united front, despite disagreements. Just remember that you can win a debate, but lose the credibility of your message because you are not being a good messenger. 2 cents. Happy shooting.

I believe the point is moot.

I keep my finger off the trigger, don't point, don't fan, know my target and what is beyond it, because it could have a round in the chamber and could discharge. I treat every gun as if it is loaded.

ATM keeps his finger off the trigger, doesn't point, doesn't fan, knows his target and what is beyond it, because it could have a round in the chamber and could discharge. Because safety.

I believe the source of the argument is that every big Training company Gunsite, Front Sight &al, Can't say we teach exactly what everyone else teaches. They have to mix it up. I like many of these groups, but Take Front Sight, they have some very interesting training. My fear is that I will get mixed up over their stated rules and mess up.

I don't think that it matters why we practice gun safety. I learned one way and will consciously never change, you learned another way and will never change.

so the only point is that you say my way is dangerous and causes accidents. Where is the science? I don't have any,you don't have any. You say they always say it wasn't loaded.

Tell me. Were they a 3 rule or 4 rule guy? I personally have had 1 ND it was a weapons malfunction. I knew it was loaded, had it pointed in s safe direction, knew my target and what was beyond it, placed my finger on the trigger, pulled and the weapon fired a 3 round burst. The problem was it was a semi auto.

When I take pains to not sweep a gun store employee (who has previously cleared the weapon and watched me clear the weapon) They always chuckle and say I'm used to that. Are their other customers 3 or 4 rule guy?

 

[actaeon277]

 

[2A_Tom]

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

I believe the point is moot.

I keep my finger off the trigger, don't point, don't fan, know my target and what is beyond it, because it could have a round in the chamber and could discharge. I treat every gun as if it is loaded.

ATM keeps his finger off the trigger, doesn't point, doesn't fan, knows his target and what is beyond it, because it could have a round in the chamber and could discharge. Because safety.

I believe the source of the argument is that every big Training company Gunsite, Front Sight &al, Can't say we teach exactly what everyone else teaches. They have to mix it up. I like many of these groups, but Take Front Sight, they have some very interesting training. My fear is that I will get mixed up over their stated rules and mess up.

I don't think that it matters why we practice gun safety. I learned one way and will consciously never change, you learned another way and will never change.

so the only point is that you say my way is dangerous and causes accidents. Where is the science? I don't have any,you don't have any. You say they always say it wasn't loaded.

Tell me. Were they a 3 rule or 4 rule guy? I personally have had 1 ND it was a weapons malfunction. I knew it was loaded, had it pointed in s safe direction, knew my target and what was beyond it, placed my finger on the trigger, pulled and the weapon fired a 3 round burst. The problem was it was a semi auto.

When I take pains to not sweep a gun store employee (who has previously cleared the weapon and watched me clear the weapon) They always chuckle and say I'm used to that. Are their other customers 3 or 4 rule guy?

great post. For the record, I'm a 4 rules guy, however, when I think of safety for the masses, 3 rules makes more sense to me. If we agree that both 3 rules AND 4 rules are safe when adhered to, then it becomes elementary for me. 3 rules, one less rule, same effect, 25% more efficient when teaching the masses. Food for thought.

 

[chipbennett]

I'm glad you asked.

Because I handle guns safely rather than unsafely.

Others handle guns as if they're loaded rather than unloaded.

Those others invariably cry, "...but I thought it was unloaded!" when tragedy occurs.

The first group is poised to ask, "So what? Why were you handling it unsafely?"

Simple. Concise. Effective.

Three.

You are implicitly following the rule you claim does not exist and is not needed, while creating a semantic/logical pretzel in order to pretend that you are not doing so.

An unloaded firearm cannot be fired, because it is not loaded. Therefore, what would be unsafe handling of a loaded firearm is not in any way unsafe with an unloaded firearm. What happens if you squeeze the trigger of an unloaded firearm? The hammer (or striker) drops, and the gun goes, "click". What happens if you point an unloaded firearm at something you do not intend to destroy? Nothing, because the firearm is incapable of destroying that thing. What happens if you are unaware of your target when handling an unloaded firearm? Nothing, because the concept of "target" is moot.

You are implicitly acknowledging the fourth rule, by claiming that you must handle the firearm the same, whether loaded or unloaded, in order to handle that firearm safely.