Would i have been in the wrong...?

[moischmoe]

I'm not 100% sure on this particular situation but brandishing a firearm that is loaded is considered a felony......

Indiana has laws against pointing a firearm at someone, but no laws against brandishing.

 

[turnerdye1]

Let me say here that there was a threat at my life. I thought i put it in the first post... But he actually said, "If you dont shut your F***ing mouth ill beat your head in". I consider that a threat to my life...

There are too many "what ifs" in this particular question to answer it fully and cleanly, but I will touch on a few things.


Mistake #1. You won't always have time to "rack a round". Glocks are meant to be carried in Condition 1 (round in chamber).


Better idea would be to lock the doors, start the car, and start driving.


Maybe if they were standing still on a square range and they were made of cardboard. I don't think 15 rounds would be adequate on 4 actual attackers.

That depends. Do you feel that your life is in imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury? Or do you simply think they want to smash your windows, key your car, and scare you?

Depends on which one is actively trying to kill or maim you.

Esrice i know you know your stuff. As far as not chambering a round....idk. Ill change that tomorow. I also carry an extra mag with me in the care so if i would be able to i would reload. I just figured 15 would be enough. Maybe 30? I personally feel like a threat on my life would be enough to defend myself but i feel like driving away would be a good option also.

IMHO...simply cussing at you and otherwise verbally harassing you would not be enough for me, sitting in your jury, to acquit you. I think what is missing from your scenario are threats of physical injury, display of weapons, proximity of them to you, etc.

As mentioned earlier...i mentioned that there was a threat of physical injury.

I like esrice's answer best so far. We have to learn that the gun isn't the only answer. If you see them waiting at the car, call the police. If they follow you, call the police. If you are really concerned that they are going to continue to go after you then file for a protective order. It really doesn't matter if you're legally justified to shoot or not; IF you have other options, use them first. You don't want it on your conscience to shoot somebody and you don't want to spend the time and money defending yourself in court. The gun is the absolute last option, as in they are advancing on you NOW with intent to seriously injure you and you cannot possibly escape. Honestly, I don't care if 25 men armed with bats are coming after me, if I can run away I'm going to do it rather than shooting at them.

I guess i looked at this the wrong way. Drive away.... But then again im not sure id be able to get my to my car. Maybe a pocket knife??

Just a question for fodder......

Why do you not carry with one in the chamber?

Until it's loaded, it's merely a paper weight or a club if they pull you away from your vehicle before you have a chance to rack the slide. Keep it ready to be fired, it will lessen your chance for a lot of potential things from happening (hand slipping while pulling slide back, round not chambering right, ect..ect..).

Now for the rest of it....IANAL and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but coming at you cussing, does justify using deadly force. You'd better be able to use the words "I feared for my life" and be able to back it up.

Im sure most of you havent seen me before but im 6'5 skinny guy with not a whole lot of meat to me. The main guy is a bigger guy and could easiley take me. 4 of them...id fear for my life easily

Agreed, IF they are really there just to beat him up or whatever. Doubtful. They are there to intimidate and if you keep your cool it is unlikely they will escalate- just like playground bullies.


Agreed. In the game of life there is no second chances when it come to life and death. They outnumbered you and you did not know if any of them were armed. If you truly feared for your safety those are not good odds. Best not to push them unless absolutely necessary.



Castle Doctrine= No duty to retreat. I thought you knew that by now? Also, how do you KNOW they are unarmed? Haven't you seen people trampled to death? They were trampled by unarmed people...





Take this advice. Esrice knows what he is talking about on all accounts.



Like has been said, we do not have a brandishing law, what you are thinking of is it is a misdemeanor to point an unloaded firearm and a felony to point a loaded firearm at an innocent person. Does NOT apply to self defense.



Some people don't like to be pushed around by guys who talk big but don't back it up. Some people take the safe route and avoid confrontation. I don't believe either avenue to be wrong as if you are a law abiding person you have every right to be where you are and there is no reason bullies should be able to change that. I think you can tell which I would choose.

Im definetly not a guy to be pushed around. But then again i dont like getting my assed kicked.

Actually this would fall under the premise of a mob action. You would be completely within your rights to shoot any of them including one not active in the assault. If after warning them they still continue towards you blast the crap out of all of them until the threat is eliminated. In a mob action there does not have to be a weapon present. If you need a link to the specific case I will find it for you when I get to my pc.

If you could find that case i would love to see it.

Driving to PD and filing a complaint and getting paper on them is definitely not a bad idea. Then....when they "violate" that order and you do what is required....you'll be on better ground.

If i get any other problems tomorow ill go to the PD and get a trespass warrant.

 

[Scutter01]

I am a lifeguard at the local city pool. As some of you know if youve ever been to the pool youll have scum and thugs come and give you **** all day. This guy in particular gives me crap everyday. He's 26.... tatted up and has no job. I gave him a few warnings like i always do but today he went over the edge. Him and his buddies started harrassing me while i was on duty and i said to stop and then they completly start dropping F bombs and calling me a *****. If that wasnt enough the bigger guy says if i tell them what to do again he was gonna smash my f ing head in when i got off work.

You sure you're a lifeguard and not a moderator?

 

[turnerdye1]

You sure you're a lifeguard and not a moderator?

Hmm? I dont get it...

 

[bwframe]

Can you "rack a round" and shoot well enough under stress to put all your rounds on 4 guys? Or do we all need to know the location of your work so we can avoid our family and friend's possibly being hit by stray rounds?

 

[Scutter01]

Hmm? I dont get it...

Because everything you described in the paragraph I quoted sounds word-for-word what being a moderator is like.

 

[LPMan59]

IMHO...simply cussing at you and otherwise verbally harassing you would not be enough for me, sitting in your jury, to acquit you. I think what is missing from your scenario are threats of physical injury, display of weapons, proximity of them to you, etc.

have you ever had 4 guys get in your face yelling obscenities at you? it's a pretty nerve-wracking experience.

even if they were not threatening you directly (though in this case one of them threatened to bash his head in), they certainly are implying violence via harassment and intimidation.

IANAL, but their freedom of speech only extends so far. And I for one, having been in a similar situation, think it is quite reasonable to be in fear of my life. ymmv

 

[Mr.JAG]

Because everything you described in the paragraph I quoted sounds word-for-word what being a moderator is like.

 

[nobody_special]

2 or more men and disparity of force would have come into the picture..yes you are allowed to use deadly force if you are outnumbered..however it would be argued that you could have called the police and had them standby while you exited the premises although the supreme court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect

 

[SMiller]

Yes, you are in the wrong, you must be in your car and they must try to gain entry, they are going to have to get the door open or smash the window. Get in, lock the door, call the police, have your weapon at the ready and see what happens from there.

Stop carrying with out a round in the chamber, this will get you killed, its a Glock, its made to be carried 15+1, just point and shoot.

 

[turnerdye1]

Because everything you described in the paragraph I quoted sounds word-for-word what being a moderator is like.

As in dealing with stupid people all day? Because i do this everyday. This is by far the worst thing thats happened to me. I dont get why the get mad...its my job. Its not like i yell at him or anything.

have you ever had 4 guys get in your face yelling obscenities at you? it's a pretty nerve-wracking experience.

even if they were not threatening you directly (though in this case one of them threatened to bash his head in), they certainly are implying violence via harassment and intimidation.

IANAL, but their freedom of speech only extends so far. And I for one, having been in a similar situation, think it is quite reasonable to be in fear of my life. ymmv

I agree. 4 people in your face would be extremely nerve wrecking...hell it was just one guy and it was nerve wrecking. It made me nervous the rest of the day. Just seeing them watching me freaked me out quiet a bit. Im just glad the cops came and made them leave.

2 or more men and disparity of force would have come into the picture..yes you are allowed to use deadly force if you are outnumbered..however it would be argued that you could have called the police and had them standby while you exited the premises although the supreme court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect

Looks like i should probably get in the car if i can if this ever happens...

Yes, you are in the wrong, you must be in your car and they must try to gain entry, they are going to have to get the door open or smash the window. Get in, lock the door, call the police, have your weapon at the ready and see what happens from there.

Stop carrying with out a round in the chamber, this will get you killed, its a Glock, its made to be carried 15+1, just point and shoot.

As mentioned i should get into my car. If they happen to do this again ill just call the cops and let them handle it. If they break my window they'll be dead. And starting tomorow its gonna be loaded and ready to go. Im just gonna rack it and put it up.

 

[norsk]

I like esrice's answer best so far. We have to learn that the gun isn't the only answer. If you see them waiting at the car, call the police. If they follow you, call the police. If you are really concerned that they are going to continue to go after you then file for a protective order. It really doesn't matter if you're legally justified to shoot or not; IF you have other options, use them first. You don't want it on your conscience to shoot somebody and you don't want to spend the time and money defending yourself in court. The gun is the absolute last option, as in they are advancing on you NOW with intent to seriously injure you and you cannot possibly escape. Honestly, I don't care if 25 men armed with bats are coming after me, if I can run away I'm going to do it rather than shooting at them.

I know many won't like this, but in all honesty these are the most refreshing statements I have read on this website in a long time. Thank you for being brave enough to say this.

 

[redpitbull44]

I skipped the above for the most part. Look, the rule of thumb is they need to be armed, or already attacking you. You can not just go shooting people that are threatening you.

Next time they show up, the person/ people at the counter need to tell them they are banned from the property. If they don't go, then the police should be called, and the officers can tell them. If they follow you after you leave the property, call the police, and don't go home, go to a public place. Tell the police you are going to a public place (for example " I am heading to the Wal-Mart on 3rd and Poplar. These guys followed me after I left work. Please have officers there to intercept them"). If the police have not arrived by the time you get there, and they begin attacking you, then you can legally shoot them until they cease the attack. Really though, if they don't have weapons, it is harder to convince the police/ a jury that you were in fear for your life. If there are several of them attacking you at once, that could be a slightly different story though.

Using your gun should be your last resort. Trust me dude, you don't want to have to kill anybody.

 

[Jtgarner]

And starting tomorow its gonna be loaded and ready to go. Im just gonna rack it and put it up.

When I first started carrying I was not comfortable carrying with one in the chamber either. It has been suggested in this thread, but a good class would do you well.
I think you have a better idea of what you could do if the situation rises again. Glad you are safe. Just keep that situational awareness and always have an escape plan. If you can't get to your car and you are over halfway there, where are you gonna go? If you get in the car and they start breaking windows what are you gonna do? If you start driving and they follow where are you going? What if they box you in and try to force you to stop? Keep these questions in mind and remember that as long as you make it home at the end of the day in relatively the same health that you left that morning you should be happy. A busted window, a dented bumper, a few key scratches, none of those are worth your life to avoid.

 

[Boost Lee]

Four pages deep and I'm beyond relieved to see some extremely intellectual responses on how to handle a situation like this.

My .02,

What threat you feel is inflicted upon yourself, in the moment, is something no jury or judge can truly witness.
Use your gut instinct to the best of your ability because truth stands on both ends of the road:

1) You shoot them in panic. You survive, unharmed. But now you suffer the possibility of doing time for making the wrong decision.

or

2) You let them approach your window hoping for cussing/taunting only to realize they've now busted through the glass and now
officially put your life at risk of 8 hands possibly badly injuring/hurting/ending your life.

It's unexpected situations like this where you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth the guilt of killing another human being(s)?"
Or "were there other options I could've taken to get me out of that bad situation?".

At the end of the day, it should be our absolute 100% last resort to EVER have to remove that piece from your holster
and take the life from someone else. But that is why we carry. Think fast.

*edit* I feel this entire situation could flip flop if you replaced 'your car' with 'a dead end alley next to a building'.
Again, for situations sake here; You'd have been TRAPPED with no other option but going through them...
And I'm sure they wouldn't let you go freely if that situation were to arise.

In your scenario... Car = Insta-getaway.

(I like seeing discussion like this... good stuff. Really gets the brain working).

 

[ckcollins2003]

In all reality... no matter what you may want to happen, the best choice is to call the police if they are still outside when you get off work.

File the paperwork for harassment/intimidation charges on them. That will most likely end up with a nice restraining order for them to abide by.

If they show up after that, call the police again.

If you make it to your car and they "appear" out of nowhere, drive away and call 911. If they decide to jump in front of your vehicle while you are driving away, the paperwork is already filed to save your butt. If they try to force their way into your vehicle and you have to defend yourself, the paperwork is already filed to save your butt.

As far as shooting all 4 of them, I'm guessing once they hear shots and see the flash they will start running, which means you'd better stop shooting because if you shoot them while they are fleeing your a$$ is grass, so to speak. I'd never acquit someone for shooting someone in the back who is unarmed and has only verbally threatened someone.

Let the police do their job. If the "Hardy Boys" want to take it further after the police have made it clear they need to stay away, then take it one step at a time, but don't ever premeditate shooting anyone.

 

[Hooker]

The last place I would want to be if four guys were threatening me is
trapped in my car trying to figure out what to do. If you are in, drive away.
If you wait until they start breaking glass, even with a gun, your chances
of shooting them all and getting away unscathed are slim.
So don't find out if they are the type to flee when you fire or attack you.
Wait inside and call the police. If you call the police every time they try
to intimidate you, eventually the cops are going to get tired of getting calls
about the punks and deal with them.

Do anything and everything you have to do to avoid taking someone else's
life, even if they do deserve to be taken down a peg or two. Regardless of
how much you want to end the harrassment, you don't want it on your conscience.

 

[stormryder]

Did anyone else hear these guys threatening you and the manager?
If so, have them give statement.
File Report,
Do not leave alone(It may chap your butt, but its good to have witnesses/support),
If they are by your vehicle, call cops.
If they follow, call cops and go to public place.
If you are trapped, as soon as they break in or lay hands, shoot 'em.

By this time you have shown you exhausted all options.
As others have suggested, say you feared for your safety.

 

[BumpShadow]

My .02. Indiana just passed a law saying that as long you feel your life is in danger, you can use deadly force. You do not need to be attacked to justify deadly force. I don't know what the law number is. Maybe someelse can help me out on that.

 

[kickbacked]

if i were you i would explain to the manager that handled the people, how they threatened your life. then i would ask him if he would be able to watch you walk to your car for awhile to just make sure nothing happened