Why Carry at Work?

[Jack Ryan]

So to you it is inconceivable that someone you work with could have a disgruntled spouse? Or someone has been cheating with another mans wife? The reasons violence can occur anywhere are too many to list. If you feel warm and safe in the flock, I hope for your sake there are enough of us who don't, that just might save your ass.

See there, that's the difference between normal and parnoia. Recognising the difference and evaluating the different levels of risk from likely to a meteor landing on your head and deciding where your money and efforts will be best spent in a defensive effort. Many people barely even acknowledge the huge range of incremental danger between "inconceivable", "may be I should carry this", and "I'm not going near that place with out a gun in my pocket".

My biggest concern is that as gun owners and advocates we lose all credibility with the majority of the population, I consider the majority to at least be semi-reasonable, when we go beyond supporting a person's right to carry there is they want to and start actling like it's silly NOT to feel naked with out a gun in your pocket at grandma's house.

I'm all for your right to carry a gun to grandma's house if you are both alright with it. Doesn't bother me a bit. I wouldn't even think much of it if I saw a guy with one in his pocket at the nursing home or hospital. When he starts preaching about it in the hall way and giving lessons or bragging like it's some big deal, "Yippee, I open carried at Happy Hills yesterday" and people pat him on the back for it like he killed forty geriatric terrorist, it all starts sounding a little absurd and ridiculous.

Credible people act credible. Fanatics act like fanatics. It only takes a momentary confusion of the two to lose your credibility with the people you are trying to influence and it takes for ever to get it back.

 

[techres]

See there, that's the difference between normal and parnoia. Recognising the difference and evaluating the different levels of risk from likely to a meteor landing on your head and deciding where your money and efforts will be best spent in a defensive effort. Many people barely even acknowledge the huge range of incremental danger between "inconceivable", "may be I should carry this", and "I'm not going near that place with out a gun in my pocket".

My biggest concern is that as gun owners and advocates we lose all credibility with the majority of the population, I consider the majority to at least be semi-reasonable, when we go beyond supporting a person's right to carry there is they want to and start actling like it's silly NOT to feel naked with out a gun in your pocket at grandma's house.

I'm all for your right to carry a gun to grandma's house if you are both alright with it. Doesn't bother me a bit. I wouldn't even think much of it if I saw a guy with one in his pocket at the nursing home or hospital. When he starts preaching about it in the hall way and giving lessons or bragging like it's some big deal, "Yippee, I open carried at Happy Hills yesterday" and people pat him on the back for it like he killed forty geriatric terrorist, it all starts sounding a little absurd and ridiculous.

Credible people act credible. Fanatics act like fanatics. It only takes a momentary confusion of the two to lose your credibility with the people you are trying to influence and it takes for ever to get it back.

A very good post, and as the OP I would like to give you a rep nod and then respond.

Your concern that gun advocates not look like nut jobs is absolutely valid, and something that we all need to keep carefully in mind as we deal with the public in our day to day interactions. The only failure in that logic is that this forum is both public and non-public. By that I mean, anyone can come here, but once here people are considered gun friendly and we all do like Mr. Rogers and change into a comfy pair of slippers and a house sweater. So what we say here is more for member of the family sitting in your living room than it is speaking to a stranger in the halls of the old folks home. I know that is definitely true for me.

As for risk assessment itself, and people's ability to tune accurately to reality, that is tricky. Walking in a church parking lot in a good neighborhood is not a place that one is likely to need a gun, and really I should not feel "naked" without one. However, that is precisely were I was mugged at knifepoint and was absolutely "naked" without any means of self defense. BTW: I can describe that knife in very minute detail even though it happened two decades ago.

And yet, I did live safely for another two decades without carrying. And statistically, I could go another two decades without incident. But even though the odds favor the house strongly, the ante is very high - namely my safety and the safety of my wife and kids. So I play it conservatively.

Now, do I get a bit goofy? Sure. The trunk gun and weeks supply of food, water, tent, sleeping bag, and assorted items in the trunk of my car is also overkill if I think of them as what I need when the zombies come to visit me at work. On the other hand, when I was 10, my father and I got stuck in a snowbank during a blizzard on a back road in rural Indiana (he tried a shortcut and failed). As an emergency measure, he left me curled up in a sleeping bag while he hiked to a farm house to get help. Lying alone in a dark, cold, lonely van without any assurance that dad would, in fact, find help and return, leaves an impression. I would have felt better with more gear, and that is saying a lot since my dad already had spare clothes and a sleeping bag for me in that van of his.

So, yes, I, we, get goofy here. And we sometimes go a bit far in what we prepare for. But at the same time, we are effectively sitting around shooting the shinola with friends and relaxing here. More so, there is often reason behind the insanity, even if it may be a bit much for some.

Some of what goes on here is preaching, some is witnessing, some is BS'ing, some is joking, some is bluster, and some is simply recharging the batteries with fellow gun nuts when we are weary of an often very gun-unfriendly culture.

I posted this video originally, not out of some Walter Mitty fantasy of being a savior, but as a reminder that carrying that uncomfortable hunk of metal day after day may be of ultimate necessity some day. And that day would come with no warning.

 

[Jack Ryan]

So, yes, I, we, get goofy here. And we sometimes go a bit far in what we prepare for. But at the same time, we are effectively sitting around shooting the shinola with friends and relaxing here. More so, there is often reason behind the insanity, even if it may be a bit much for some.

Some of what goes on here is preaching, some is witnessing, some is BS'ing, some is joking, some is bluster, and some is simply recharging the batteries with fellow gun nuts when we are weary of an often very gun-unfriendly culture.

I posted this video originally, not out of some Walter Mitty fantasy of being a savior, but as a reminder that carrying that uncomfortable hunk of metal day after day may be of ultimate necessity some day. And that day would come with no warning.

I haven't seen the video, work filters. So don't take it personal, I'm not really even "preaching" to any one. You pretty much hit the nail on the head for how I like to use internet messege boards and gun/hunting/shooting boards in particularly. For my self I'm just sitting at the "camp fire, having a seat" and passing the time.

...and same right back to ya friend. All this reasonableness does seem to take a lot of the spice out of the conversation though.

 

[rhino]

Josh, you are far too apologetic for your choices, in the colloquial sense, not the philosophy sense.

 

[techres]

Josh, you are far too apologetic for your choices, in the colloquial sense, not the philosophy sense.

My bad, let me try again:

"You can have my trunk gun when you pry it from my warm, sleeping bagged hand after you froze diggin out my car while I hydrated on stored Gatorade and numnumed on an MRE!"

Hope that is better!

 

[esrice]

techres - pseduo-rep'd for a great post! (I have to share the love before I rep you again)

rhino- rep for using big words!

 

[techres]

Josh...

I forgot to mention, rhino, we all have the same image of you as a Mr. Rogers coming home, changing shoes and sweater, trading out the compact Kimber for the long slide.... Oh, wait....

 

[rhino]

My bad, let me try again:

"You can have my trunk gun when you pry it from my warm, sleeping bagged hand after you froze diggin out my car while I hydrated on stored Gatorade and numnumed on an MRE!"

Hope that is better!

Hah! And the pendulum swings . . .

I just think that some (maybe most) of us have been conditioned by our respective subsets of society to somehow be ashamed of the kind of conclusions we reach and decisions we make. I don't think it's a source of "pride" (other than pride in choosing to be responsible), but it should not be a source of shame or embarrassment, even if it's just that little inkling in the back of our minds.

I think the same dynamic is at work with some who don't want to carry openly, even in situations where there is no good reason to not do it and plenty of good reasons to do it.

None of us should feel that, although questioning one's self is healthy and should be done periodically when it's convenient. Intellectually I've had few doubts for quite a while in this regard, but emotionally it took me quite a few years to fully unburden myself that I might be doing something "wrong" or "unacceptable." There will always be an inkling of it, but it's not typically a factor when I make my decisions.

The analogy with seatbelt now borders on cliche, but it's inherently accurate' Aside from intrusive motor vehicle regulations, we don't wear seatbelts because we expect to be involved in a wreck. We don't have fire extinguishers because we expect a fire a to happen. The odds of either are low, but the consequences are dire (as you discussed in your apology in the philosophy sense this time). I go further in that I don't pick and choose when or where I wear my seatbelt. Most who do, do so at the wrong times in that they only wear them on the highway, but not in the city where 1) they're more likely to need it, and 2) they're more likely to actually help. Not being psychic, I can't predict when or where an accident will happen. Although I can identify situations and places where they are less likely, I know statistics apply to populations, not individuals.

It is a pure example of hubris to believe that one can effectively predict with certainty what will or will not happen to them.

I forgot to mention, rhino, we all have the same image of you as a Mr. Rogers coming home, changing shoes and sweater, trading out the compact Kimber for the long slide.... Oh, wait....

In fact, the smaller gun (a full size single stack government model) gets donned when I change from my outside clothes to my inside clothes/jammies. I have easier access to "more" when I'm home than I do when I'm out and about.

Actually, home would be a good place to carry the even smaller guns, again because access to "more" is easier.

 

[techres]

Josh, you are far too apologetic for your choices, in the colloquial sense, not the philosophy sense.

This line has left me thinking that you, sir, are a master debater. If I, on the one hand, agree then I am being apologetic in admission of wrong. If I, on the other hand, disagree and argue, then I am being apologetic in not just saying "take a jump in the creek".

Either way, I lose any debate! A well laid trap, sir.

So I will do all that is left to me: re-define!

Apologetics

Apologists are authors, writers, editors of scientific logs or academic journals, and leaders known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning a speaking in defense.

So, I will chose the image of "leaders", "speaking in defense" under the "popular scrutinies" of the anti's, fighting against their "persecutory examinations", choosing to convince and influence.

And, conveniently use that to wiggle out from your trap!

That all works well except the following statement:

I think the same dynamic is at work with some who don't want to carry openly, even in situations where there is no good reason to not do it and plenty of good reasons to do it.

Oh, snap! That's just coldly insightful...

 

[Marc]

bad people in pain makes me feel good... is that a bad thing?

 

[rhino]

This line has left me thinking that you, sir, are a master debater. If I, on the one hand, agree then I am being apologetic in admission of wrong. If I, on the other hand, disagree and argue, then I am being apologetic in not just saying "take a jump in the creek".

Either way, I lose any debate! A well laid trap, sir.

So I will do all that is left to me: re-define!

I appreciate the praise, kind sir! However, it was not my intention to virtually skewer you thusly. It was merely a happy coincidence that you have now brought to my attention!

Perhaps it truly is better to be lucky than to be "good." Well, maybe sometimes anyway.

Even if by chance, it's probably better to be known as a Master Debator than as a . . . (wait for it) . . . (drum roll) . . . Master __bator. <rimshot!> Hah! I crack me up!

Oh, snap! That's just coldly insightful...

If it helps, I spoke for my myself primarily. I still feel the pangs, but I'm able to override them in most circumstances. It's not unlike the Catholic Guilt© with which I live on a daily basis, although I am far less able to subvert that part of my character. I suspect that you may be able to relate to that.

 

[indytechnerd]

Here's a conundrum for yas. My place of employment specifically forbids weapons. Whatever. But, 2/3 of my building is within a secured perimeter. Metal detectors going in and out. This is not due to the worry of some gun-toting thug (though that's happened), but because of some of the high dollar items used within the building. My employers are worried about theft, and rightly so, as some items within my building are easily concealed and more easily sold on ebay or whatever.

The thug story is funny. In our old building, guy comes in to work and the detector goes nuts. Guy is packing a low end auto pistol mexican style and 2 mags in his back pocket. Claimed to the security guard that he 'forgot' he had his gun with him. I'm thinking that it'd be hard to forget.

 

[Bubbajms]

I've worked in an environment like that before, technerd, and there's not much you can do in that situation.. maybe get one of those sweet "Glock 7" handguns that don't set off metal detectors

 

[indytechnerd]

Prohibitively expensive, Bubba, particularly the fact that I can't use standard ammo with it. Sweet gun though, I think they hold about 50 rounds, 'cuz all the video I saw never showed them reloading.

 

[Bubbajms]

That's something that I've always wondered about, too - if we all carry with one in the pipe, how come they always rack the slide when the pull their handgun from the holster??

 

[indytechnerd]

Maybe they're carrying condition 3.

It's gotta be an intimidation thing. Nice, loud racking of the slide on a large frame auto certainly gets attention. Same could be said for a pump action shotgun.

 

[Bubbajms]

I'll agree, and in some instances that'd work, but when I'm "CSI BlahBlah" and I'm sulking around in a warehouse with a bad guy, it's not time for intimidation..

 

[esrice]

That's something that I've always wondered about, too - if we all carry with one in the pipe, how come they always rack the slide when the pull their handgun from the holster??

I especially like when they pull a Glock(s) and you hear the *click* of a hammer being pulled back.

 

[colt45er]

I especially like when they pull a Glock(s) and you hear the *click* of a hammer being pulled back.

or a 1911 and you hear the *click* of a hammer being pulled back. Of course they do at least have a hammer but you wont find me carrying my 1911 with one in the tube and a hammer down.