Why all the hate on .40

[el_barto3]

So i just got a police surplus glock 22, gun has minimal holster wear and looks unfired for like $260, but everyone seems to hate .40 with a passion, but why?

I understand there's more recoil and it can be if it's happy, and in compact and subcompact guns it sucks to shoot, but it doesn't seem that bad in service pistols.

The ammo isn't incredibly expensive and available. It's easy enough to shoot in a a full size gun. It seems to perform better then 9mm with barrier penetration and even cheap .40 JHPs perform as well as if not better then 9mm. Even the flat nose .40 FMJ is not a horrible defensive round(over penetration aside6
).

I get people who call it .40 Short and Weak and want to carry full house 10mm and it's good for hunting. but looking at most ammunition, testing, full power 10 mm either over expands or over penetrates with most modern defensive ammunition.

And the well regarded defensive/duty JHP loadings in 10mm are running more or less at hot .40 S&W velocities.

I understand why people don't like it for concealed carry, but why all the hate?

If ai had to use it as a cop gun, or in a home defense pistol it seems like it is a good middle of the round round for that purpose

Too my understanding it's mostly myths related to military trial requirements, people in a lot of law enforcement fields will even see it as a worse 9mm just because you lose -2 -3 rounds in a factory magazine and with the harder recoil it was considered harder to shoot accurately without the power being adequate compensation for this. To my understanding this is how you end up with a lot of those statements ripping on its power, but obviously .40 gets used a lot in LEO and Civilian incidents and statistically from a criminal's perspective is the second most popular handgun caliber after 9mm. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees it works fine on some level, but too be honest because it's very popular for criminals or whatever, they get a bad rap also.

 

[ECS686]

Don't own a .40 only 10mm's. The .40 can't do anything the 10 can't except let the city boys in the FBI shoot a reduced 10

While the downloaded ammo was a thing it wasn’t because of any qualification issues.

The real issues were the S&W 1076 was too big for smaller agents and unlike the days of Wheelguns it’s not as easy to reduce grip size on a steel frame auto (this was befor Glocks and grip reduction) so they FBI quietly went with Sig 228’s until the Glock 22/23 was adopted in 1998 ish

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While the downloaded ammo was a thing it wasn’t because of any qualification issues.

The real issues were the S&W 1076 was too big for smaller agents and unlike the days of Wheelguns it’s not as easy to reduce grip size on a steel frame auto (this was befor Glocks and grip reduction) so they FBI quietly went with Sig 228’s until the Glock 22/23 was adopted in 1998 ish

I think people tend to forget FBI specs have a maximum penetration depth as well. I've seen a few pass throughs that hit somebody else after trucking through the first body.

 

[DadSmith]

I think people tend to forget FBI specs have a maximum penetration depth as well. I've seen a few pass throughs that hit somebody else after trucking through the first body.

I've found/seen researching that a 10mm full power load with a decent hollow point will penetrate less than a 40S&W with the same HP and weight in ballistic gel.
The 10mm's faster velocity caused the HP to expand faster and slow down faster resulting in less penetration.
How realistic is ballistic gel for determining actual penetration of a human body?
There is no bone of course. So how much difference would a rib bone or arm bone make in slowing down a bullet?
Another question is: do bones deflect heavy bullets say 180gr to 240gr? Or do those bullets just cut right through and continue on in a somewhat straight line?

 

[Noble Sniper]

Curious how the hardcast would compare……

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've found/seen researching that a 10mm full power load with a decent hollow point will penetrate less than a 40S&W with the same HP and weight in ballistic gel.
The 10mm's faster velocity caused the HP to expand faster and slow down faster resulting in less penetration.
How realistic is ballistic gel for determining actual penetration of a human body?
There is no bone of course. So how much difference would a rib bone or arm bone make in slowing down a bullet?
Another question is: do bones deflect heavy bullets say 180gr to 240gr? Or do those bullets just cut right through and continue on in a somewhat straight line?

It's definitely possible for a faster bullet to penetrate less, and you see it a lot with the ultra light weight/ultra fast projectiles. However the designers of the bullet can tailor the projectile to the velocity via hardness of the alloy, skiving, etc. to get the desired penetration envelope. Because of that you can't blanket statement which will do better without comparing specific bullets and specific velocities. It's also why you see so little difference in common duty calibers, they are all "tuned" to the same specs, just using different ways to get there.

Yeah, bones definitely *can* deflect heavier bullets. I've seen 230 gr .45 Auto ride ribs, ride skulls, etc. Bullet shape matters a lot, as does which bone and at which angle they impact. Round bone vs flat bone, individual variations between people, ball ammo vs WC, etc. Velocity or weight or both will eventually overcome the deflection, but it's tough for me to give any sort of bright line as to where exactly that happens in handguns. You can make some general assumptions, though, like a WC will resist deflection at a much lower weight and velocity than ball will, etc.

 

[ECS686]

I've found/seen researching that a 10mm full power load with a decent hollow point will penetrate less than a 40S&W with the same HP and weight in ballistic gel.
The 10mm's faster velocity caused the HP to expand faster and slow down faster resulting in less penetration.
How realistic is ballistic gel for determining actual penetration of a human body?
There is no bone of course. So how much difference would a rib bone or arm bone make in slowing down a bullet?
Another question is: do bones deflect heavy bullets say 180gr to 240gr? Or do those bullets just cut right through and continue on in a somewhat straight line?

Possibly. Sometimes though I feel people get too wrapped up with how stuff does in gel and they should look a a few street results. As an example while the 9mm Silvertip got a lot of blame for Miami and like Federal 9BP (9bp not the much faster 9bp LE) does port in gel tests a ton of agencies had had great results in shootings with them.

And seeing a ton of Federal inmates that have been shot with everything and not to mention the extreme blunt force trama they do to each other and most live through it outside a Nervous System or Aortic hit in a few cases gel testing didn’t pan out!

 

[Creedmoor]

Will it kill a Kodiak bear?

Have they been reported as being a problem in Indiana?

 

[Creedmoor]

Curious how the hardcast would compare……

I would say it would depend on the alloy used.
Is it just hard and it shatters?
Is it hard and malleable and expands?
Or is it like bpcr bullets, soft like putty and just massively expands?

 

[BigRed]

Have they been reported as being a problem in Indiana?

10MM is better.

 

[Creedmoor]

10MM is better.

In a Colt Delta or an MP5?

 

[BigRed]

In a Colt Delta or an MP5?

Take your pick.
I am always partial to a 1911

 

[Creedmoor]

Take your pick.
I am always partial to a 1911

Ones faster than the other, but both are prone to failure. Ask me how I know that.
For me The Delta.

 

[DD15CBUS]

I'll be honest, I didn't read 16 pages worth of comments but my thoughts are:

1. 40 is more expensive than 9mm and phased out from a lot of common places like LE, so the firearms can be cheap but ammo not as much

2. Some manufacturers no longer make popular offerings in 40, making parts and certain firearms harder to find, which is its own annoyance

3. Lots of people just like to give crap to anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%

 

[TLHelmer]

This article is an interesting read. It may not change many minds but here it is: https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-v...809&utm_content=316337809&utm_source=hs_email

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This article is an interesting read. It may not change many minds but here it is: https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/?utm_campaign=The Armory Life&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-87Sk4G3wBPOMe7-UrFoLROSdXDZP_JKw8kpegy1Go7ORsLCFItnAOPwQeHklsX7xjNZGks7C_DN2VYqDF5jOaIZMfNLA&_hsmi=316337809&utm_content=316337809&utm_source=hs_email

I got to the point he stared using clay then bailed. Lots of fudd lore before that. Ballistic gel isn't human tissue and doesn't behave exactly like human tissue. It's an *analogue* of human tissue used to reliably (and with great repeatability) predict expansion and penetration in most human tissues. It is the only test medium other than water that has a proven correlation (water requires mathing but can be done). Clay can't be "calibrated" to be repeatable nor does it have any proven correlation to any human tissue.

I get the need for content generation and the like, however I'll simply posit this: If there's a significant difference in the terminal ballistics of 9mm vs .40S&W, why have there not been swings in the number of successful stops when large entities that shoot a decent amount of people transitioned? Even with zero understanding of the whys and hows, that metric is easily understood by anyone. If one is better than the other, it will show more success in real world use when all other variables are the same. The same people with the same training shooting the same bad guys, just with different bullets. You can see the difference with, say, 5.7 vs .223 in carbines. One is markedly better than the other (the one that's not 5.7). You do not see that over masses of data with 9mm vs .40SW vs .45 Auto. They all have slight edges in certain contexts. Maybe a bit more penetration through glass vs a bit more expansion in soft tissue strikes, etc. It also shows that minor differences in split times are meaningless in real world encounters, one of the oft quoted benefits of 9mm, just not a thing as people can shoot faster than they can think with most any of them in duty sized guns anyway. Not even getting into how quickly hit rates decrease as more time passes and more shots are fired.

At this point in the ammo game, what matters more than caliber is bullet construction. 9mm is currently the floor for weight where you can get a "does it all well" bullet that can be barrier blind without over penetrating with a soft tissue only strike and can maintain it's own integrity through hardened barriers (ie, doesn't fragment through glass or after a major bone strike).

 

[ECS686]

This article is an interesting read. It may not change many minds but here it is: https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/?utm_campaign=The Armory Life&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-87Sk4G3wBPOMe7-UrFoLROSdXDZP_JKw8kpegy1Go7ORsLCFItnAOPwQeHklsX7xjNZGks7C_DN2VYqDF5jOaIZMfNLA&_hsmi=316337809&utm_content=316337809&utm_source=hs_email

There’s a discussion on this link on the Springfield Armory Forum.
Didn’t realize so many people were so emotionally attached to a favorite caliber!!!!

 

[TLHelmer]

There’s a discussion on this link on the Springfield Armory Forum.
Didn’t realize so many people were so emotionally attached to a favorite caliber!!!!

I am not attached, but I found the article interesting.

 

[ECS686]

I am not attached, but I found the article interesting.

I also found it interesting. But it’s funny a simple article and then the comments get completely out of left field.

Speaking of I just find it funny speaking of either favorite as well as disliked calibers people base either in theory and conjecture (usually regurgitating others statements) and not accepting real world outcomes.

Like I get it 40 isn’t as popular as it use to be but does anyone really want to take a hit from it?

There are a few agencies that probably won’t get away from 40 anytime soon. California Highway Patrol is one of them.

 

[TLHelmer]

I also found it interesting. But it’s funny a simple article and then the comments get completely out of left field.

Speaking of I just find it funny speaking of either favorite as well as disliked calibers people base either in theory and conjecture (usually regurgitating others statements) and not accepting real world outcomes.

Like I get it 40 isn’t as popular as it use to be but does anyone really want to take a hit from it?

There are a few agencies that probably won’t get away from 40 anytime soon. California Highway Patrol is one of them.

That is interesting! I didn't know any large agencies still carried the .40 caliber. We went away from it in the early 2000's, I believe. We went to the 9mm and then back to the .45 ACP which we still carry today. The rumors are we will be switching to the 9mm when we get a new Super. Sig has discontinued the Sig 227 so it makes sense.