Where do rights come from?

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  • jamil

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    Perhaps it was the context (i.e. following other things posted by other people), but I don't think my post implies any sort of rigorous defense? In fact, I tried to make clear that I'm not getting into that level of discussion about abortion in this thread, but instead limiting it to the context of rights.

    But, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been accused of being "too serious." I'm probably guilty as charged. It's just a personality fault. :D



    I don't intend this as snark: please re-read my post. I do describe such circumstances. I do believe that they are limited, on the basis of "competing rights", but I acknowledge when they exist.

    You must also realize (even if you don't agree) that I approach the discussion from the perspective of every human being having all intrinsic, natural rights inherent on the basis of being a living human being - which includes the unborn, who are (undeniably) living human beings. Thus, the question I posed is really the central question of the issue: Under what circumstances is any right of the mother infringed by the life of the human being whose life is taken through abortion, much less a higher priority than the right to life of that human being?

    (And, again, I did acknowledge what I believe is one, and the only, such such circumstance.)

    I'm willing to discuss that question - but not much else, at least in this thread - about abortion.

    If this is just about rights, I’m probably closer to the 99% than the one. But I do think there is at least some merit to rights on the other side that I have to acknowledge. An unexpected pregnancy is a burden, to the mom in particular but also the father, assuming that he’s responsible enough to stick around. The moral question is, which rights have priority. I kinda side with the one that favors life more than convenience, but I don’t think it’s immoral for those who choose abortion under some circumstances. And that’s as far as I’ll go with it, or people will jump on every little detail, and turn this into yet another abortion thread.
     

    Jludo

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    My embedding skills are lacking but I would HIGHLY recommend that those interested in this discussion watch and/or listen to the video I posted in post #343.

    Here's what I would suggest is worth a watch. Jordan Peterson v Sam Harris with Bret Weinstein moderating. I linked to a particularly interesting analogy but the whole thing is worth watching.

    https://youtu.be/m0-oC_49fq4?t=1005

    [video=youtube_share;m0-oC_49fq4]https://youtu.be/m0-oC_49fq4&t=1005[/video]
     
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    BugI02

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    I watched it, I'm sure it's not surprising that I fall on the Sam Harris/ Steven pinker side of the debate. What role Christian thinkers and philosophy played in history and getting us to where we are I don't really dispute. That doesn't make Christianity true though.

    Also I much prefer watching two people who disagree on a subject talk than listen to two people tell each other why they're correct.

    And I would prefer to watch reruns of classic 50s movies. That and $1.80 will get me a tall at Quikbux

    All discussion of weighty subjects is meant to persuade and convince, whether the audience size is one other or the whole of the internet. Somebody still wants to 'win', you just prefer a different set of debate rules. That'll be $1.80, plz
     

    chipbennett

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    If this is just about rights, I’m probably closer to the 99% than the one. But I do think there is at least some merit to rights on the other side that I have to acknowledge. An unexpected pregnancy is a burden, to the mom in particular but also the father, assuming that he’s responsible enough to stick around. The moral question is, which rights have priority. I kinda side with the one that favors life more than convenience, but I don’t think it’s immoral for those who choose abortion under some circumstances. And that’s as far as I’ll go with it, or people will jump on every little detail, and turn this into yet another abortion thread.

    You're really not answering the question (and if that's intentional, to avoid Yet Another Abortion Debate, no problem): what are the circumstances that would weigh any of the rights of the mother over the right to life for the human being whose life is taken?

    I'm not really interested (in this thread) in discussing or debating other abortion-related matters, such as who bears responsibility for what, and the consequences of actions and decisions. I am only interested (in this thread) in discussing the impact of inherent, natural rights of the decision-maker (mother) and of the decision-affected (the unborn baby) at the time that an abortion is performed.
     

    jamil

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    You're really not answering the question (and if that's intentional, to avoid Yet Another Abortion Debate, no problem): what are the circumstances that would weigh any of the rights of the mother over the right to life for the human being whose life is taken?

    I'm not really interested (in this thread) in discussing or debating other abortion-related matters, such as who bears responsibility for what, and the consequences of actions and decisions. I am only interested (in this thread) in discussing the impact of inherent, natural rights of the decision-maker (mother) and of the decision-affected (the unborn baby) at the time that an abortion is performed.
    It is precisely that for why I did not answer the question. I don’t think it’s possible to discuss abortion in an agnostic (small “a”) way. There will be disagreements based on religious views, which neither side can really get past.
     

    chipbennett

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    It is precisely that for why I did not answer the question. I don’t think it’s possible to discuss abortion in an agnostic (small “a”) way. There will be disagreements based on religious views, which neither side can really get past.

    Interestingly, I pretty much never argue against abortion from a religious perspective or based on religious views. I generally only argue based on scientific views.

    But, the issue of abortion does bring up an interesting thought experiment:

    If rights are truly a construct of man, then man gets to decide at what point those rights attach - in which case, there is no real, moral quandary if mankind collectively determines that rights do not attach until birth. But then, what of any other, similarly arbitrary criterion for attachment of rights?

    If rights are derivative of some naturally occurring objective morality (but not from God/Creator/etc.), then some dispassionate, moral standard should dictate at what points rights attach. The most common ones I've heard are the developmental point of viability outside of the womb, and/or the point at which brain activity can be detected. But those would seem to be based on - and limited by - human technological advances. Today, the "point of viability" is around 20 weeks and a few days. A decade ago, it was about 22 weeks or so. Several decades ago it was 28 weeks, 30 weeks, or even later. So, how can "point of viability" - which appears to be far more a factor of human technology than some objectively understood truth - be the basis for an objective moral standard? (The same would apply to detection of brain activity or other markers.) Scientifically, from the moment mitosis first occurs, all growth and development of the zygote is wholly self-directed. Dispassionately, from a scientific perspective, the womb merely provides a conducive environment for that zygote's self-directed growth and development. And what about the day when human technology and knowledge has developed sufficiently to allow for wholly in vitro development, with no human womb required? How does that change the calculus for the objective, moral standard by which mankind determines when rights attach to a developing human being?

    And since I'm not making a religion-based argument, I won't even add to the thought experiment the case in which rights are an endowment from a Creator. There's plenty to chew on, just with the above.
     

    2A_Tom

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    37b1rq.jpg
     

    NKBJ

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    Our laws are based upon the views held concerning right and wrong, morals, which are derived from our beliefs. Our government in it's very structure was designed upon the premise that we would behave ourselves, restrained from evil by the truth and light provided to this world by it's creator and incorporated into our daily lives.
     

    chipbennett

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    Our laws are based upon the views held concerning right and wrong, morals, which are derived from our beliefs. Our government in it's very structure was designed upon the premise that we would behave ourselves, restrained from evil by the truth and light provided to this world by it's creator and incorporated into our daily lives.

    "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

    - Thomas Jefferson
     

    NKBJ

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    "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

    - Thomas Jefferson

    That brings to mind the comment that if our creator doesn't whack America then He will owe an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah.
     

    2A_Tom

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    Boy, I almost posted something from the ***** that***said.

    Phew! Dodged that bullet. :whistle:
     

    Jludo

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    Our laws are based upon the views held concerning right and wrong, morals, which are derived from our beliefs. Our government in it's very structure was designed upon the premise that we would behave ourselves, restrained from evil by the truth and light provided to this world by it's creator and incorporated into our daily lives.

    If we behaved ourselves by the truth and the light provided by the creator we wouldn't need government, the leviathan, keeping us in line.
     

    2A_Tom

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    So the pastor went to the hospital to congratulate the new parents. Standing at the viewing window, he said to the new dad, "Your baby seems to be a bit jaundiced."

    The young man turned to the preacher and said, "Two Wongs don't make a white."
     
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