What to do....

[stilllearning09]

I've read and re-read your post and I believe you did the right thing. What could you have done even if you were carrying a gun? You don't know whether one of the assailants or spectators had a gun, too. Then what, a gun battle in a McD's parking lot?
First and foremost was the safety of your family. You called the police. The only thing I would have done is take photos or video with my cell for the police. When they needed witnesses, you would have pics of the assault and those around it including cars and possibly license plates.
We all feel like we want to help. That's why I love this forum, we are not people who want to sit around and do nothing. But in that situation, I think you did the only thing you could do.

 

[concrete dog]

i agree you did the right thing with your family in the car with you.i rolled up on a fight a few years back at the car wash(not saying this two guys where worth the trouble but my car needed washed)and when the people saw that i was carrying a pistol the crowd thinned out fast.i didnt stick my nose in just got coins and went about my way.the police showed up and that was it.+1 for your good judgement

 

[RachelMarie]

Thanks for all the replies. It's good to have a board to come to, to see how others might handle the same situation.

I was really torn. Still am. If it was me being beat (nearly to death from what I saw), I sure do hope someone would jump in and try to save me. But at the same token, I could understand why someone would choose not to.

I've never seen a fight that bad, I NEVER want to see it again. I felt so much guilt through the night that maybe I should have done something more. But I'm content with my decision.
This is something I really have to think about for when my ltch arrives. I would like to be a bit more prepared next time. Or atleast know how I would react. I never thought about it before!

How would I react if my family was NOT there? I don't know, ,but it is something I need to start thinking about!


RM

 

[Sailor]

Nobody can tell you if you did right or wrong. Its all on you.

I used to live in that area. As a habit, we plan it so we never have to stop anywhere west of Valpo.

 

[HandK]

You did the absolute right thing!! You saved her and your family, there are too many variables that could have went wrong if your husband went to help unarmed!!! You did the right thing, +1 good for you sleep well at night knowing you did the right thing!!!.

 

[Archbishop]

I guess I'm just the next one saying I agree. Without a gun it would have been crazy, but even with a gun you're now engaging +10 people and in less time then it takes to think it through you'll be making judgment calls on who to shoot at and who not to. And that assumes that all goes well. When TSHTF you'll be engaged in a drawn out gun battle that will send bullets flying in every direction. Saving one life by endangering countless others doesn't add up.
Now, having said that I would still have to get involved. Maybe laying on the horn, yelling that the cops have been called. Something that might otherwise let the attackers know that their time is limited. I know it's probably not the right tactical move, but I don't think I could just sit by. Not saying that OP did wrong we all make our own judgment call. Glad it worked out the way it did though.

 

[jclark]

Under the circumstances given, I think that you did the right thing.
Most people would not have taken the time to call the police.

 

[Bubba]

In another thread, 3 Mexican walk towards a car...they make no threats or display no aggressive behavior and it's OK to pull a gun...but an individual is getting the crap beat out of them (slamming one's head onto a vehicle would fall under serious bodily injury in my book) and it's not here?

What am I missing here? RM, of course I understand you didn't have yours yet...but to those that replied...why exactly are you carrying that weapon?

In the 3v1 situation, the 3 guys were displaying what could best be described as pack hunting behavior, and the OP had already retreated to his vehicle. The threat level was compounded by a failure to roll up his windows after parking, denying the OP security when he reached his car.

In RM's situation, she was across the street from a fight, 12v1. Let's assume for this situation that she had her LTCH and was armed with a G23, 13+1 rounds onboard. Tactically she's at a huge disadvantage. She has the choice of either shooting the bystanders as she moves through the group or letting herself be surrounded by apparent friends of the aggressors. That choice kinda makes itself. So now RM is inside the perimeter of a medium-sized aggressive group. At what point should she draw? What force levels should be exhausted before applying deadly force? Under normal circumstances I would say 12v1 means starting near the top of the force continuum, but as I noted in my earlier post she was there willingly which to me negates the force disparity as justification for lethal force. Let's assume she gets 5 yards from the women doing the beating, and RM draws her weapon after repeated verbal commands have been ignored. The two fighting women change their focus away from the victim. How does RM withdraw with a presumably wounded, potentially unwilling victim? The best case is that RM will have to use one hand to guide the victim, worst case is the victim is unconscious and requires carrying. I don't know RM's physical condition, but I think nearly all people would have difficulty maintaining a weapon at the ready while carrying another person, if they could do it at all.

And what if she does fire? Who does she shoot? When does she stop shooting? In my book "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is filed somewhere below Plan Z. Also, she'll need to reload fast. One shot stops are great in the movies, but to take on 12 opponents with 14 pistol rounds in real life is pretty long odds. Legally, it would be a disaster. Force would likely be legal under state law against some number of the aggressive party, but it would be difficult to justify deadly force against all 10 bystanders if all they were doing was watching the beatdown. Besides which, as I stated in my earlier post, if RM had gone in she would have been there willingly. Self-defence is a tough sell in civil court when you intentionally place yourself in harm's way.

So, in short, the first situation was a failed attempt to retreat from a threat. In Rachael's situation, had she taken a more active role, she would have gone looking for trouble, if not committed an imaginative form of suicide. Situations like the one she witnessed point out the fine and somewhat hazy line between being a responsible armed citizen and being a vigilante.

 

[El Cazador]

I'm in agreement with the others here. The other thing to consider is if you (generically "you") got sucked into the fight, and then LE rolls up, they have no idea who you are. To them, you're just another combatant. With a gun. So you get to enjoy the ride to the tank with the zip-ties on along with everyone else. Couple of thousand later, and how ever many hours it takes, you go free. Fun.

 

[Bill of Rights]

In another thread, 3 Mexican walk towards a car...they make no threats or display no aggressive behavior and it's OK to pull a gun...but an individual is getting the crap beat out of them (slamming one's head onto a vehicle would fall under serious bodily injury in my book) and it's not here?

What am I missing here? RM, of course I understand you didn't have yours yet...but to those that replied...why exactly are you carrying that weapon?

Good answers to your question. I'll add that although I do carry and would hate to try to sleep at night after witnessing this and doing nothing but be a good witness, I also am torn; help and lose all I have, possibly including my life vs. don't help (directly) and possibly watch a murder happen (the real kind, not the one that is followed seconds later by Jamie Lee Curtis trying to sell yogurt that makes you poop.)

Public, I have to turn this question around. If you are traveling, let's say in Ohio, and therefore have neither your patrol car, your radio, your gunbelt (though you do probably have your pistol and a reload or two), or your badge and you see a 12-13v1 fight, with the fighters surrounded by their friends... what would you do? Please also answer this as best you can from the perspective of someone without extensive crowd-control training. (that is, two answers, one as a cop without all the fun toys, the other as a citizen without police training and regular DT practice)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Jay]

I didn't get as old as I am by being stupid. I'd call the cops, try to make it known that I DID call the cops, and be aware of the fact, that some situations I cannot control.... as much as I'd like to be able to do so.

 

[public servant]

Good answers to your question. I'll add that although I do carry and would hate to try to sleep at night after witnessing this and doing nothing but be a good witness, I also am torn; help and lose all I have, possibly including my life vs. don't help (directly) and possibly watch a murder happen (the real kind, not the one that is followed seconds later by Jamie Lee Curtis trying to sell yogurt that makes you poop.)

Public, I have to turn this question around. If you are traveling, let's say in Ohio, and therefore have neither your patrol car, your radio, your gunbelt (though you do probably have your pistol and a reload or two), or your badge and you see a 12-13v1 fight, with the fighters surrounded by their friends... what would you do? Please also answer this as best you can from the perspective of someone without extensive crowd-control training. (that is, two answers, one as a cop without all the fun toys, the other as a citizen without police training and regular DT practice)

Blessings,
Bill

Bill,

I suppose what bothers me most is when I read time and time again here people raising their fists up against the "tyrannous government" professing in such great glory "they can have my guns when they pry them out of my cold, dead hands" or "I'll die with a pile of brass around my feet before I give up my guns". But when referencing watching another human being being possibly beaten to death in front of our very own eyes and push comes to shove the response is, "be careful...you could be hurt...or worse...sued".

I certainly hope that I never find myself in the middle of that crowd...being the one getting their head bounced like a basketball off the trunk.

Oh well...you know me Bill...I have a tendency to over react and stick my foot in it. Being a LEO or not being a LEO has nothing to do with it...IMO.

But for the record...I believe the OP did exactly the right thing being unarmed.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I certainly hope that I never find myself in the middle of that crowd...being the one getting their head bounced like a basketball off the trunk.
Being a LEO or not being a LEO has nothing to do with it...IMO.But for the record...I believe the OP did exactly the right thing being unarmed.

To RM , call 911 EVERY time . THEY get paid to be hero's and have the training , equipment and backup to do so , sometimes .

To PS , come on man seriously ? I don't want to stand by while someone gets their head bashed in but WTF man ? I don't care if your the current heavy weight MMA champ , your NOT gonna win against a crowd .

Can a smaller out numbered force win against a larger one ? Sure you could shoot your way into the crowd , retrieve the victim and egress but how's that gonna end for you ?

This isn't the military and I'm betting if we started using military tactics to engage this type of "enemy" , we (Joe public) would get screwed hard in the courts .

 

[public servant]

To RM , call 911 EVERY time . THEY get paid to be hero's and have the training , equipment and backup to do so , sometimes .

To PS , come on man seriously ? I don't want to stand by while someone gets their head bashed in but WTF man ? I don't care if your the current heavy weight MMA champ , your NOT gonna win against a crowd .

Can a smaller out numbered force win against a larger one ? Sure you could shoot your way into the crowd , retrieve the victim and egress but how's that gonna end for you ?

This isn't the military and I'm betting if we started using military tactics to engage this type of "enemy" , we (Joe public) would get screwed hard in the courts .

meh...don't mind me. Nevermind...

 

[oldfb]

meh...don't mind me. Nevermind...

PS I had much the same thought as you. If not us then who? The police with a Minute to fifteen minute response time?

A bumper sandwich would come to mind if all were active combatants. Failing that because most were just egging them on instead of intervening I consider all of them part of the mob.

Blowing horn and screaming for them to stop while secure in a running auto at a distance poses a marginal risk if your avenue for escape is not blocked. Anyone believe a mob can actually stop a vehicle driven with serious intent is watching too many tv shows. Only on tv do the cars get flipped over because the driver tried to slowly part the mob. In reality the outcome of a car vs legs the legs lose everytime.

As for RM you did just fine with the tools and tactics at your disposal based on your mindset. I imagine you will think this over long and hard and hopefully you will never experience this again.

As for tactics and what if... Imagine how much more creative you would be were it a loved one being beaten to death in that situation.

Because she was possibly being beaten to death and besides calling 911 everyone sat and witnessed it.

It takes one flukey hit to kill someone! Which is why the old schoolyard smackdown doesn't exist any longer. No reasonable man or woman should see a person being beaten and assume death is not the projected outcome by the perpetrator. This isn't sparring or training this is unarmed combat and to assume anything less is the lie we tell ourselves to justify not stepping in and risking our lives.

The fact that we make this " I could get seriously hurt or die" arguement for not getting involved is our very justification for using deadly force to save this person.

Sad story is no one wants to get their hands dirty alone any longer.

Now it is mob mentality and guns in school because no one is willing to say "enough".

When three girls had my daughter on the ground kicking her in the hall at school in Highland they had videotape of it and still only prosecuted one girl after I had to file a police report and force the issue. Because there was such a mob of kids allegedly they couldn't see who was involved.

Were I there armed or not even as crippled as I am, I would have waded into the fray.

I now feel fairly certain that I would do whatever I could to intervene for whomever was getting beaten because of the fact that 30 mopes watched my child getting beaten and kicked and did nothing or cheered them on.

No one can blame you for not risking your life or your family. Just remember someday it could be yours that ends up on you tube. Hopefully someone will at the least call for help like you did.

Where as my child was in a hallway with students and teachers who from my understanding waited til it was over.

You called for help. You did the best you could with what you had.

What were the rest of the witnesses doing? Not one was willing to stand up and try to intervene? What a truly pathetic society we have become a part of.

Land of the free and home of the stand by and let it happen...

Next time you will be ready? Right?

I pray I will less strongly than I pray I never find myself there.

MMaybe that is just the sheepdog in me itching to protect someone because I wasn't there when my daughter was in trouble.

 

[public servant]

PS I had much the same thought as you. If not us then who? The police with a Minute to fifteen minute response time?

A bumper sandwich would come to mind if all were active combatants. Failing that because most were just egging them on instead of intervening I consider all of them part of the mob.

Blowing horn and screaming for them to stop while secure in a running auto at a distance poses a marginal risk if your avenue for escape is not blocked. Anyone believe a mob can actually stop a vehicle driven with serious intent is watching too many tv shows. Only on tv do the cars get flipped over because the driver tried to slowly part the mob. In reality the outcome of a car vs legs the legs lose everytime.

As for RM you did just fine with the tools and tactics at your disposal based on your mindset. I imagine you will think this over long and hard and hopefully you will never experience this again.

As for tactics and what if... Imagine how much more creative you would be were it a loved one being beaten to death in that situation.

Because she was possibly being beaten to death and besides calling 911 everyone sat and witnessed it.

It takes one flukey hit to kill someone! Which is why the old schoolyard smackdown doesn't exist any longer. No reasonable man or woman should see a person being beaten and assume death is not the projected outcome by the perpetrator. This isn't sparring or training this is unarmed combat and to assume anything less is the lie we tell ourselves to justify not stepping in and risking our lives.

The fact that we make this " I could get seriously hurt or die" arguement for not getting involved is our very justification for using deadly force to save this person.

Sad story is no one wants to get their hands dirty alone any longer.

Now it is mob mentality and guns in school because no one is willing to say "enough".

When three girls had my daughter on the ground kicking her in the hall at school in Highland they had videotape of it and still only prosecuted one girl after I had to file a police report and force the issue. Because there was such a mob of kids allegedly they couldn't see who was involved.

Were I there armed or not even as crippled as I am, I would have waded into the fray.

I now feel fairly certain that I would do whatever I could to intervene for whomever was getting beaten because of the fact that 30 mopes watched my child getting beaten and kicked and did nothing or cheered them on.

No one can blame you for not risking your life or your family. Just remember someday it could be yours that ends up on you tube. Hopefully someone will at the least call for help like you did.

Where as my child was in a hallway with students and teachers who from my understanding waited til it was over.

You called for help. You did the best you could with what you had.

What were the rest of the witnesses doing? Not one was willing to stand up and try to intervene? What a truly pathetic society we have become a part of.

Land of the free and home of the stand by and let it happen...

Next time you will be ready? Right?

I pray I will less strongly than I pray I never find myself there.

MMaybe that is just the sheepdog in me itching to protect someone because I wasn't there when my daughter was in trouble.

And this was my whole point...what if it was my daughter being beaten? Or yours... I'm just know I could not stand there and watch.

Someone mentioned praying to God. God helps those that helps themselves... I guess He will decide if it's my time to go.

 

[oldfb]

And this was my whole point...what if it was my daughter being beaten? Or yours... I'm just know I could not stand there and watch.

Someone mentioned praying to God. God helps those that helps themselves... I guess He will decide if it's my time to go.

Amen!

My bestest friends always thought I was looking for an excuse to kill some one because I believed in carrying even while living in our neighboring communist state.

I don't ever look for a fight or opportunity and try my best to avoid any altercation. I put my ego on a shelf when I carry.
I become possibly the most level headed non-confrontational person on the planet because I never want to add my testosterone to the mix.

Too often we witness our friends, family and people in general that just cannot learn when to just shut the hell up. II never want to be that guy.

At the same time I am willing to be the guy that says enough! Run your mouth all you want just be prepared if you attack for me to shoot your stupid butt. I make no joke about not being able to survive for very long in a real fight with a healthy person so my threat response will be as unconventional or deadly as I have the means to produce.

This isn't premeditation any more than practicing on the range is, so I feel confident in sharing this on an open forum.

Commiting ourselves to the defense of another or ourselves is not premeditation. Period end of discussion before that even gets started.

The reason the fights break up when the 12 squads show up is not because of the lights and sirens. It is because finally someone armed and willing to intervene has arrived with 11 of his friends to help him or her.

 

[IndyBeerman]

In another thread, 3 Mexican walk towards a car...they make no threats or display no aggressive behavior and it's OK to pull a gun...but an individual is getting the crap beat out of them (slamming one's head onto a vehicle would fall under serious bodily injury in my book) and it's not here?

What am I missing here? RM, of course I understand you didn't have yours yet...but to those that replied...why exactly are you carrying that weapon?

First all she has no LTCH, so she's not carrying....
for being a law abiding citizen.


2nd..... with the 3 Mexican men, that involved 1 person that walked up and placed his hands on the car and looking in and seeing the firearm, if memory is correct it was not raised into full view for all three to see.
ONLY 3 PEOPLE

3rd.... put yourself in her position, she has family with her, so are you really that conceded to think that you are capable enough to take on a possible 13+ hostile people coming at you, place at least 1 round in each person if needed, reload all while looking to see if 1 of them is carrying a weapon and concentrate your attention on that one and hope no one else had anything? Better hope your really good at backing up and hope God really smiling down on you that day.

Personally speaking, even if I was a great shot, I don't have enough :bigballs: to even dream that I would be able to do that and to take the chance with my life and family members life with 13 possible attackers.


She did the right thing, made the call and stayed with the vehicle in case a quick escape was needed.

 

[public servant]

She did the right thing, made the call and stayed with the vehicle in case a quick escape was needed.

No argument from me...RM did exactly the right thing given her situation. I've stated that from the get go.

 

[oldfb]

First all she has no LTCH, so she's not carrying....
for being a law abiding citizen.


2nd..... with the 3 Mexican men, that involved 1 person that walked up and placed his hands on the car and looking in and seeing the firearm, if memory is correct it was not raised into full view for all three to see.
ONLY 3 PEOPLE

3rd.... put yourself in her position, she has family with her, so are you really that conceded to think that you are capable enough to take on a possible 13+ hostile people coming at you, place at least 1 round in each person if needed, reload all while looking to see if 1 of them is carrying a weapon and concentrate your attention on that one and hope no one else had anything? Better hope your really good at backing up and hope God really smiling down on you that day.

Personally speaking, even if I was a great shot, I don't have enough :bigballs: to even dream that I would be able to do that and to take the chance with my life and family members life with 13 possible attackers.


She did the right thing, made the call and stayed with the vehicle in case a quick escape was needed.

I speak for myself. I never questioned her actions and supported her choice. Offered alternative options and questioned all tha are armed and face this type of scenario to have more than a gun on their hip which is about as useful as a thumb in the arse without the will to defend someone including yourself in that situation.

If a mob turns towards a well armed person in a functioning vehicle when you call for them to stop. I am not conceited, I am 100% certain I would be able to give as good as I get and I pray for the courage to do something to stop the incident besides bear witness.

My point was if we are only going to extend ourselves to the protection of ourselves and loved ones then we are not much of the shepdogs many profess to be.

It seemed Bill asked a legitimate question because he wanted to know from PS experience what his response would have been. Not out of arrogance but out of truly wanting to learn from someone that professed a will to do more.

I professed a belief that regardless of the outcome I would attempt to alter events because of wanting to truly defend when needed.

Now I an not calling anyone that doesn't get involved a sad sack.

I actually just wonder, if not us then who?

I think you give the mob mentality more credit than they deserve. If you drop the first SOB that moves to attack you. The others may run for cover and stop beating or worse raping someones daughter.

You strapped the gun on.
Did you think it was added safety our courage?

The safety comes from the wielder of the tool. The courage comes from our willingness to put others before ourself.

No one can fault those that cannot get involved but seriously don't condem those that might.

We need more that are willing to stand together!

We already have enough that do otherwise was my point.