What DO we tell women?

[rhino]

Actually, since the bullet is rotating and it's passing through a fluid (i.e. air), it will curve somewhat ... that's called gyroscopic procression and it's a factor for long range rifle shooting. For pistol shots, the effect is negligible.

In addition, the bullet is always falling after it exits the barrel because it is always accelerating toward the Eath, so again it does not follow a straight line path (neglecting gyroscopic procession), but instead follows a parabolic path (within our frame of reference). That's basic projectile motion. Even for pistol, elevation issues can be a factor for precision shots once you get past 15-20 yards.

Now, the stupid-a** "curve the bullet" crap is going to do exactly what you mentioned: impart an initial horizontal velocity on the projectile. That just means it will hit to the side of where you "aimed," not that it will "curve." With the horizontal component considered by itself, the bullet will have a constant velocity in that direction (for which you can neglect wind resistance since the component of velocity in that direction is small), which will only make you miss the target.

It's like a backwards, ignorant application of what you do when you shoot at a moving target ... you swing with the target, leading it an appropriate amount, then follow through with the swing since the bullet (or shot load) is still in the barrel when you press the trigger. Applying the horizontal component of velocity to your projectile(s) allows you to compensate for the relative horizontal velocity of your target.

Did you say something about being a geek?

Actually...

The lateral movement imparted by the gun will cause a lateral movement in the bullet... as the bullet slows down the movement will become more pronounced. It's first semester physics.

Now, how much will the bullet actually "curve"?

Let's assume that a person can sling the gun sideways at 30mph. That's 44 fps.

Let's also assume that the bullet is travelling 1,000 fps.

Neglecting air resistance and gravity, the bullet will travel about 44 feet per 1,000 feet travelled (actually you would have to do some trigonometry, but the angle is small enough to ignore, and it's Saturday.)

So if you were shooting at a target 100 feet away (33 yards) the bullet would go 4.4 feet sideways.

However... the bullet does not curve... it still goes in a straight line (assuming no air resistance, which we will ignore with short shooting distances), it's just a straight line at an angle. If you include gravity and air resistance, the bullet will "curve" (not much), but again it's Satuday, and I'm not doing any calculus on Saturday.

Needless to say, you would still probably miss the intended target.

And it violates RULE #4.

... and now that everyone knows how much of a geek I am...

 

[flagtag]

What it really boils down to is that I can't depend on anyone but myself to take care of me and mine!

 

[Ri22o]

What it really boils down to is that I can't depend on anyone but myself to take care of me and mine!

I can come out and help in the event that you run into trouble, but I would probably need at least 18 hours advance notice so that I may request the time off of work.

 

[flagtag]

I can come out and help in the event that you run into trouble, but I would probably need at least 18 hours advance notice so that I may request the time off of work.

The law might get jelous if you beat them here.

 

[Ri22o]

The law might get jelous if you beat them here.

Good point.

 

[rhino]

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

It's a joke and it's also true.

 

[Pami]

Wait.. now I'm confused. The first time I read the OP, I thought it was more of a rhetorical question.. like disbelief... "Are we as a society really teaching this to women? Are we doing anything to counteract that?" I didn't read it as a "What should I tell women that I meet that think guns are Evil and Bad?"

So what direction is this thread headed? Because now I'm getting really confused. Please don't throw physics and calculus at me again.

 

[kludge]

Good question, Pami.

No, the OP wasn't meant to be rhetorical. The police and women's rights groups have all kinds of strange (bad?) advice for women to follow, and since I am a first class "guy" (in addition to being a first class geek) I have untold abilities when it comes to my proficiencies in offending women whenever I open my mouth, regardless of the topic.

This topic is too important to take that risk, especially since it is so controversial, and where "empowered women" are on TV and in the news saying things that fly in the face on logic.

I grew up with an empowered woman (mom), and she is neither liberal nor takes offense when people say their mind. Frankly my wife is probably the only other woman in the world who could stand to spend a day with me...

Don't take me wrong I'm an overall nice guy, polite, a regular Boy Scout, but I do have opinions and I don't mind sharing them. And with the way I grew up I'm not used to people getting their unmentionables in a wad or taking things personally when someone expresses an opinion. In short, I'm short on tact, I suppose.

So maybe the question is two-fold: What can/does a person say, but perhaps more importantly, how to say it so it means the right thing to a woman?

 

[Jay]

Well, for no more than it's worth, here's what the IL State Police suggest that women do......... seems sort of lame, to be perfectly honest.

Sexual Assault - If You Are Confronted...

 

[Annie Oakley]

I really don't know what exactly you can say to a woman to counter the ridiculous suggestions that so many people put out there. Certainly expressing to her that she is worth defending, that she is important and capable of standing up for herself is a start. Society has always taught us that we are to be defended by our men, and although I really thought that would have changed by now it hasn't.

Starting with our daughters is very important. Women helping their female friends to accept the responsibility for their own safety is important. What it really boils down to is that each of us needs to really think about how safe we want to be and if we really want to leave our well being in someone else's hands. Those of us who have reached the point where we know we can defend ourselves have gotten there in different ways but I would be willing to bet that it is more a case of what we have thought about more than what anyone else has said to us.

It is a dangerous world. We are not able to go one on one with a man as far as physical strength. My family and friends need and want me around and I will do whatever it takes to be there for them.

 

[flagtag]

I really don't know what exactly you can say to a woman to counter the ridiculous suggestions that so many people put out there. Certainly expressing to her that she is worth defending, that she is important and capable of standing up for herself is a start. Society has always taught us that we are to be defended by our men, and although I really thought that would have changed by now it hasn't.

Starting with our daughters is very important. Women helping their female friends to accept the responsibility for their own safety is important. What it really boils down to is that each of us needs to really think about how safe we want to be and if we really want to leave our well being in someone else's hands. Those of us who have reached the point where we know we can defend ourselves have gotten there in different ways but I would be willing to bet that it is more a case of what we have thought about more than what anyone else has said to us.

It is a dangerous world. We are not able to go one on one with a man as far as physical strength. My family and friends need and want me around and I will do whatever it takes to be there for them.

I second that!

 

[Pami]

I really don't know what exactly you can say to a woman to counter the ridiculous suggestions that so many people put out there. Certainly expressing to her that she is worth defending, that she is important and capable of standing up for herself is a start. Society has always taught us that we are to be defended by our men, and although I really thought that would have changed by now it hasn't.

Starting with our daughters is very important. Women helping their female friends to accept the responsibility for their own safety is important. What it really boils down to is that each of us needs to really think about how safe we want to be and if we really want to leave our well being in someone else's hands. Those of us who have reached the point where we know we can defend ourselves have gotten there in different ways but I would be willing to bet that it is more a case of what we have thought about more than what anyone else has said to us.

It is a dangerous world. We are not able to go one on one with a man as far as physical strength. My family and friends need and want me around and I will do whatever it takes to be there for them.

I second that!

I'll third it.

Especially two points:

1) I agree women come around more because of what they've thought about rather than what they've been told. Although, what they've been told usually starts the thought processes.

2) Starting with our daughters is very important. Children are still learning about the world and are more impressionable than most adults are, who may be resistant to changing the way they've thought for the last few decades.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Getting the thought process going is critical, Pami. Usually the only other thing that jumpt starts it is a close call of some sort.....if you are lucky it is just a close call. For too long women in general have been made to think that they can't protect themselves and that has to change. Not only because there are lots of women who are on their own and even the ones that aren't don't have their "protectors" around full time. I'd rather die fighting than giving up.

 

[rhino]

The idea of convincing someone they are worth defending is something that is foreign to most male persons, but it's a huge issue among female persons (and some males as well). The only way I've been able to even remotely get my mother and one of my sisters into the right frame of mind is to suggest what if someone tried to harm their children and then what would happen to their children if they were not around anymore because they failed to defend themself.

All too many women say, "I could never shoot someone." I think in many cases, it's because they don't truly believe their own life is worth as much as the person who is trying to harm them. I don't know why and it inherently doesn't make any sense to me, but I know it's true in all too many cases and it has to be accommodated.

Once you clear the hurdle getting someone to realize they truly are inherently valuable and worth of defending, then you can commence to guide them into learning how to go about defending themself.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Our society has always taught women that they are somehow less important than men. I don't know if it is because we were originally an agrarian based society where boy's were hoped for in order to run a farming operation or not. I do know that when I was growing up my brothers were encouraged much more than I to get an education and were given much more freedom which drove home the point to me that I was not expected to make much of myself. Somehow I didn't buy into it as I got older but my younger sister sure did.

We have to raise our daughters differently and I think that fathers can make a huge difference for them. Make sure your daughters are told how valuable they are, how smart, how special and then follow it up with your time. It is the most important gift you can give them. Teach them not only about shooting but car repair, home repair, anything that you can think of that will instill in them the sense that they can do things for themselves.

Adult women sometimes need to be gently nudged into new ways of thinking. Just starting a conversation with them about things you are concerned about gets them thinking. We may seem resistant but if we have the spark to get us going we usually can come out at the right place. It is just foreign to many women because it is not how they were raised and it isn't the message that we see in the media.

 

[Scutter01]

We have to raise our daughters differently and I think that fathers can make a huge difference for them. Make sure your daughters are told how valuable they are, how smart, how special and then follow it up with your time. It is the most important gift you can give them. Teach them not only about shooting but car repair, home repair, anything that you can think of that will instill in them the sense that they can do things for themselves.

We have a nine year old daughter. We try to make her take personal responsibility for any number of things. We also try to teach her everything she needs to be completely 100% independent.

I don't know if this is typical for all 9 year old girls, or just mine, but she seems to have little or no interest in most of these things. We had her in martial arts classes so she wouldn't be a victim, but she had no interest in attending or practicing, so now I sneak in training techniques from time to time when she doesn't realize what I'm doing. She was helping Spasmo build a loft bed this week, but couldn't stay interested in the process for more than five minutes at a time. When I changed the engine in my tractor, she was technically helping, but again, had no interest. Our biggest challenge is finding things that actually interest her that have practical application.

The reason I say this is that maybe it's intrinsic in the way that young girls' (and then women, later) minds work. Maybe the "helpless victim" is built into their software. Nature versus Nurture, so to speak. Maybe the "strong woman" type is an aberration, a person who's managed to break their "natural" programming.

I'm not a psychologist and have no statistically relevant pool from which to derive meaningful data. Just something that I was thinking about.

 

[Fletch]

If she goes to a public school, you're probably fighting the 40 hours/week of social indoctrination she gets there.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Scutter, I think you are at least partially right. More and more research is showing that there are organic differences in the brains of men and women. We have to keep trying though. At 9 I think it is very hard to hold their attention. I find that with my grandson who is that age. And Fletch, you are correct about school as well although I don't think it matters if it is public or private. There is also peer pressure to deal with. It is a tough row to hoe but don't give up.

 

[flagtag]

We have a nine year old daughter. We try to make her take personal responsibility for any number of things. We also try to teach her everything she needs to be completely 100% independent.

I don't know if this is typical for all 9 year old girls, or just mine, but she seems to have little or no interest in most of these things. We had her in martial arts classes so she wouldn't be a victim, but she had no interest in attending or practicing, so now I sneak in training techniques from time to time when she doesn't realize what I'm doing. She was helping Spasmo build a loft bed this week, but couldn't stay interested in the process for more than five minutes at a time. When I changed the engine in my tractor, she was technically helping, but again, had no interest. Our biggest challenge is finding things that actually interest her that have practical application.

The reason I say this is that maybe it's intrinsic in the way that young girls' (and then women, later) minds work. Maybe the "helpless victim" is built into their software. Nature versus Nurture, so to speak. Maybe the "strong woman" type is an aberration, a person who's managed to break their "natural" programming.

I'm not a psychologist and have no statistically relevant pool from which to derive meaningful data. Just something that I was thinking about.

It could just be her age. Kids that age don't seem to focus on too many things for long. Just keep doing what you have been - don't stop. I believe she is absorbing what you have been trying to teach her, (at least a little of it) even tho she might not know it.
Exposure is the key! Repeated exposure - even if she doesn't seem to be interested will teach her subconsciously a lot more than she (and you) realizes. (A few months/years down the road: "Hey! I remember how to do that." Or "I've seen that before")

 

[Fletch]

I've personally come to the conclusion that females are somewhat more susceptible to groupthink than males, especially when it comes to what's seen as "good" and what's seen as "bad". I think of Carrie Nation and her Prohibitionists, the "Million" Mad Mommies, high school cheerleader cliques, and so forth.

I've sat in countless group discussions of controversial topics in various venues (college, church, etc.), and it always seems like the women are so eager to reach consensus that they'll support and reinforce whomever speaks up first with a strong opinion. The men, on the other hand, will argue until they're ready to take it outside. The weird thing is... some the men will privately admit that they "mostly" agree with one another and were playing devil's advocate, while some of the women will privately say "I disagreed, I just didn't want to argue about it."

The problem is that the women will disagree but modify their behavior to suit the "norm". My wife, for example, strongly dislikes a group of women in her office, but for 7 years has allowed them to set the rules for her behavior, even when the alternative behaviors might be perfectly acceptable from the POV of the boss.

Bringing this 'round to the topic at hand, I can certainly see (and have talked to) a lot of women who "wish" for something more to "feel safe", but can't imagine going outside their perceived social norms to do so. I have male friends who also resist the idea of carrying a gun, but most of them have admitted that it's just because they're too cheap/lazy to go through the process.

ETA: I think the reason a "strong father figure" is so helpful is that he has the power to set an alternative social norm, and gives girls (and boys) the opportunity to choose which norm they will follow. At the very least, they will always know that there is an alternative.