I hear ya! Couldn't they have said "wiser"
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
URGENT! MAN WITH LONG GUN ON IUPUI CAMPUS DOWNTOWN
- Thread starter g00n24
- Start date
-
- Tags
- mwag nanny state
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
I hear ya! Couldn't they have said "wiser"
Much like the young gentlemen who wrote this observation, I too was only two buildings away from the "threat." I stayed in the public areas and hallways of the building throughout the ordeal and ignored the ONE faculty member who walked through asking people to lock themselves in rooms.
I sat there for nearly 3 hours before observing the first officer enter that building. With AR15/M16 in hand of course, but nobody needs those.
Had there been a REAL threat on campus that they were searching for, a LOT of damage could have been done since many buildings went uninspected by security/LE. Even if they had gone to every building immediately, there was a 30 minute gap apparently from the initial report to any sort of alert going out or action taken.
There is a LOT of damage one can do in such a crowded area in that amount of time.
The campus is absolutely UNPREPARED to deal with a real threat. I'll have time to write up a more detailed response of my personal experience and observations over the weekend I hope.
2ADMNLOVER
Grandmaster
To point out, and since there is so much attention here currently the group is actively seeking assistance from local contributors and organizations in any way they can.
Some instructors are donating class spaces. Some online retailers are donating useful items such as concealed carry backpacks. Some are contributing financial donations by way of gift card for us to use for our printing needs such as informational flyers. Their assistance will be followed by increased business through our efforts and ability to advertise them both locally and nationally. We will be in need of demonstrators, guest speakers, locations to hold shooting events, and the list goes on but people we will take whatever contributions one can offer.
I'm nowhere short of ideas in how we can benefit one another. This organization's goal will be to spark an interest in people to learn about self-defense and firearms. To connect them with appropriate means of education. To dispel myths, eliminate common misconceptions, and eliminate widespread irrational fear of firearms by building relationships between average citizens and local gun community. Essentially, to turn as many "anti-gun" minded people into "gun friendly" as humanly possible through every available means we can.
That is the direction I'm driving this group. To do it I must build such relationships with local businesses and organizations which are supportive to the cause. So if you or anyone you know would like to contribute in any way or aren't sure how, feel free to contact me and we can discuss it. It is the intent for those relationships to be mutually beneficial and we will be sure that contributors get their name recognized everywhere we can.
Changing people's mindset starts with education, but nobody can do that alone. We welcome everyone's help.
Some instructors are donating class spaces. Some online retailers are donating useful items such as concealed carry backpacks. Some are contributing financial donations by way of gift card for us to use for our printing needs such as informational flyers. Their assistance will be followed by increased business through our efforts and ability to advertise them both locally and nationally. We will be in need of demonstrators, guest speakers, locations to hold shooting events, and the list goes on but people we will take whatever contributions one can offer.
I'm nowhere short of ideas in how we can benefit one another. This organization's goal will be to spark an interest in people to learn about self-defense and firearms. To connect them with appropriate means of education. To dispel myths, eliminate common misconceptions, and eliminate widespread irrational fear of firearms by building relationships between average citizens and local gun community. Essentially, to turn as many "anti-gun" minded people into "gun friendly" as humanly possible through every available means we can.
That is the direction I'm driving this group. To do it I must build such relationships with local businesses and organizations which are supportive to the cause. So if you or anyone you know would like to contribute in any way or aren't sure how, feel free to contact me and we can discuss it. It is the intent for those relationships to be mutually beneficial and we will be sure that contributors get their name recognized everywhere we can.
Changing people's mindset starts with education, but nobody can do that alone. We welcome everyone's help.
Last edited:
IndyGunSafety
Master
OH THE HUMANITY! 
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Nexst to the flagpole?
I am at "more likely than not" that this was a political act by the administration/faculty.
Are you going to get the police report? It would be interesting to see who reported this. What his or her job is. What relationship to IUPUI administrators or faculty that person has.
whitetailbowhunter
Expert
As an active member of Students for Concealed Carry at ISU (an campus sponsered organization that speaks to allow CC on school campus) I am in contact with other groups around the state and a Member of the IUPUI SCC wrote this on his facebook wall about his day at school yesterday. Long, but a great read with facts:
"After taking time to digest my observations and grasp at the logic behind the events of yesterday on the campus of Indiana University-Purdue University in Indianapolis (IUPUI), I have decided to compile my thoughts into the following note. I understand that some will discredit my observations as that of “gun nut” others will herald me as a supporter of the 2nd amendment to keep and bear arms; however, neither of these groups are the ones I hope to influence with this piece. Let those who consider themselves logical, who do not get swept up in the appeals to fear in our society, who look at a problem and survey all the solutions, take my observations to heart. It is my desire that my opinions and observations be examined, thought through, discussed and if it be so alter or strengthen your opinion on gun regulation in the state of Indiana and across the country.
Timeline:
I will first convey the events of the day:
At 12:55pm, as I was getting into my car to head to campus I received the following text, “IUPUI Alert!Man with long gun seen in lot at Barnhill and Vermont. Seek Shelter”
Please note: these alerts are not necessarily out of the ordinary. Whenever a robbery, armed or not occurs on or around campus they go out. The most recent being on March 3rd. Generally the threat is determined to be over within a few minutes and the campus returns to normal. As my class was still 35 minutes away, and because attendance is mandatory, I made the determination to drive to campus anyway.
At approximately 1:17-1:23pm, on my drive in along 11th street, University Blvd, and W North Street, I witnessed no security, no police and countless students meandering around. Granted some of the student’s heads were on a pretty fast swivel, but had I not received the text alert I would never have thought a thing was amiss.
I arrived on campus at 1:24pm and parked in the parking lot between North Street Garage and Blackford Street garage. WTHR was reporting a campus wide lockdown at this point. I walked into the North Street garage as I always do, ascended to the top level and used the hamster tube to walk into the Business and SPEA building. Still no security, no police. The hallway was filled with students, significantly more than normal gazing out the window. Some students might have been afraid, but none were showing it. Instead as I walked towards my classroom I would hear a wise crack or joke about the students that were clearly visible walking outside.
I was in my classroom by 1:31, half the class was missing which was less than I had anticipated. The professor was there, but informed us he had to actually struggle to leave his office as other faculty members strongly advised against it. We sat and talked, still no security, no police.
At around 1:55 a rumor starts to circulate the classroom that shots have been fired. Those of us with laptops have the news websites open and quickly discredit the rumors simply because it has not been reported on.
At 2:03 the following text is received: IUPUI Alert! UPDATE! Police are actively investigating report of an armed individual on campus. Remain in shelter location until an All Clear is received.
Time passes, we watch the students in the hall, and the professor dismisses class realizing that he will never get anything done anyway. He is careful to tell us he is not sure exactly what we should do and therefore to use our best judgment. Still no security, no police.
2:15pm, another student mentions that the news is reporting all the buildings on campus are “locked down”; however, students entering and exiting the SPEA building has not stopped. The doors are not locked, it is free access all around.
At 2:30, a couple students mention that they really have to leave to get to work. A small group of us agree to walk with them to their cars. The plan is to all walk to one car, and then use that car to get to the next and so on. The car is parked in the Barnhill Garage (the supposed ground zero). Still no security, no police.
We begin our walk across campus, using buildings as often as possible to avoid walking outside. We walk out of the business and SPEA building (doors are still unlocked) into Taylor hall (doors are still unlocked), we walk from Taylor to Cavanaugh (doors are still unlocked). We attempt to use the gerbil tube between Cavanaugh and the student center and finally encounter our first locked door. Slightly dismayed we head back outside, walk around Cavanaugh and for the first time we see a police officer, 7 of them in-fact standing or sitting around their squad cars. The time is 2:40pm. As we stand waiting for the light to change, the officers take shotguns out of their cars and enter Cavanaugh, we cross. The student center building is locked at ground level; however, a push of the handicap button and the door swings open. This brings us to Barnhill garage and the end of our journey.
In all we entered 4 buildings, and witnessed others walking into the lecture hall bringing the total of “unsecured” buildings to 5. It also took an hour and 45 minutes before a single police officer was seen by anyone in the SPEA building, and that is only because we left the building. Another student and I, were rather dismayed by the lack of police and security presence and decided to continue walking to make any other observations we could. The majority of the police presence seemed to be concentrated at the entrances to the hospital. Including officers posted in the gerbil tubes leading the hospital.
At 3:30 the following text is sent out: “IUPUI Alert! UPDATE2! If you are not on campus, stay away. If you are on campus remain in shelter location until an All Clear is received.”
Please note: This is the first text that explicitly warns students to stay off campus if they are not already there. While others encouraged students to seek shelter they did not give students a valid or often necessary reason to present to professors to miss class. With this text, it doesn’t matter if the all clear is given at 3:31, students are fully capable of missing their 3:45 class for instance.
The all clear was finally given at 5:06pm: “IUPUI Alert! All Clear is issued regarding the armed individual on campus. Normal campus operations are in effect. Scheduled evening classes are in effect.”
I apologize for the long winded description of events, but I felt it was necessary to understand what I experienced to further understand the mindset from which I am approaching this note.
Questions:
If an individual was actually carrying a “long gun” as described to police (or if he had it in his trunk) was he breaking any laws?
If the police had apprehended the individual and he had not pointed the gun at anyone, nor fired it what could they do?
Did I feel safe?
Do I believe IUPUI’s procedure is up to the task of community wide protection in the case of an active shooter? If not, what could they do better?
Answers:
If an individual was actually carrying a “long gun” as described to police (or if he had it in his trunk) was he breaking any laws? If the police had apprehended the individual and he had not pointed the gun at anyone, nor fired it what could they do?
The simple answer to this question is no, the individual did not break any laws. In the state of Indiana it is not ILLEGAL to carry a gun on campus; however, school policy threatens expulsion if you do. Thus provided the individual did not point the gun at anyone, was not directly asked to leave by a member of the administration or security (trespassing), and did not fire said weapon he/she had broken no law and therefore could not be arrested or charged.
Did I feel safe?
The answer to this question is in two parts. Yes, I felt safe. I felt safe because I did not believe a threat existed. There was no report of an active shooter, there was no report of multiple confirmed sightings. There was one person who thought she saw a gun. This feeling of safety was not brought about by anything the administration, administrators, staff, security or police did. As stated previously security and police presence was not witnessed in my section of campus (just 2 buildings over from ground zero), and the administrators and staff in my building knew less than we did.
Do I believe IUPUI’s procedure is up to the task of community wide protection in the case of an active shooter? If not, what could they do better?
No, IUPUI is not ready for an active shooter situation.
They did a lot of things right:
They called in for assistance from IMPD, Capital police and State troopers without delay.
They issued quick warnings to the student population. The number of phones consistently buzzing from texts, emails and phone calls issuing warnings was impressive.
They did a lot of things wrong:
The warnings were vague and offered no real updates.
There was no visible security presence throughout the campus.
The “gunman” was reported to have been seen near the Barnhill parking lot, yet they were apparently searching the campus for the individual. If they were indeed searching the campus, should not at least a minimal security presence be felt throughout?
The “lockdown” was ineffective. Some buildings were not locked at all, and others were accessible by simply hitting the handicap button. I like the idea of a building going into lockdown, and doors locking so no one can come in, but locks that inefficient do nothing.
If the lack of security on my side of campus implied that the gunman was most certainly on the other, it seems to me that my side should have been evacuated. Having us “seek shelter” in classrooms without locks, in the business and SPEA building, does not provide any real security.
Observations:
The entire campus of a major university, located within a large metropolitan area, was thrown into confusion and fear because of a single sighting of a gun. Why does the glimpse of a single individual with a single gun cause so much fear?
Just last week I got a haircut. While there, the individual in front of me had taken off his jacket, to sit in the chair, clearly displaying his formally concealed handgun. I felt no fear. The hairdressers did not display any apprehension. Why is one gun, on one campus grounds for so much fear?
I present to you that the level of fear caused is directly related to the unarmed condition of the campus. IUPUI, like all other college campuses across the state has declared itself to be a “gun-free zone”. There is no such thing. A gun free zone merely indicates that any individual intent on following the rules and handling their firearms responsibly are not allowed to carry while on campus. A “gun free zone” does not stop individuals seeking to do harm from wielding a gun on campus. In fact, I would argue that it encourages it. A “gun free zone” implies a large amount of defenseless people can be found within. There is simply no one capable of stopping a rampage during the 6-11 minutes police will take to respond.
As I sat in class during the “lockdown” yesterday, I was contemplating the “fish in a barrel” situation that had developed. When I presented my thoughts to those present, I discovered that 7 of the 22 students (including myself) in the class legally possessed a concealed carry permit. Yet all of us were disarmed by the policies of the school.
Despite having a pretty sound knowledge of how other gun owners treat the responsibility of carrying a weapon, I will not even attempt to speak for them, but I can relay my own experience and hope you can learn from it.
I received my concealed carry permit from the state of Indiana 3 months after my 18th birthday. I began practicing with my handgun of choice as often as I could afford. I promised myself I would not carry until I was fully confident in my ability to clean, draw, aim and fire my weapon without fail every time. I have been carrying concealed for three and a half years now. I carry everywhere I go, except for school. Essentially if I am wearing jeans, and I’m not on campus I am armed. It is just a way of life. Do I have any desire to ever be forced to use my weapon? Absolutely not. I would rather go my entire life never having to draw it, but I will if I have to.
I made the determination never to allow myself, or those around me, to be a victim. The pain I will feel if I am forced to use my gun in self-defense will be great. But it can never compare to the regret and agony I would feel if I allowed myself or someone I love to be hurt or killed in something I could have stopped.
One of the hardest decisions I make, is to take my gun off when going to school. Yet I am forced to do it every time. When I remove my gun, I am trusting an institution with my safety. An institution who has stated that it cannot be everywhere at every time. An institution whose handbook recommends the following for an active shooter scenario: "If there is absolutely no opportunity for escape or hiding, it might be possible to negotiate with the shooter; attempting to overpower the shooter with force should be considered a very last resort, after all other options have been exhausted."
On March 3rd, the statement was made in one of the IUPUI alert e-mails,
“Go with your instincts, but be realistic about your ability to fight off someone; your instinct may be to run, scream, kick, hit or bite. However you decide to respond, be sure you do so with full commitment of your effort.
Try to remember as many details as possible and alert Police as soon as possible. Your goal should be to escape safely and survive.”
We witnessed today the speed at which police move across campus while searching for a shooter, I do not wish to try and negotiate, run, scream, kick, hit or bite for that amount of time.
Over the past 24 hours, I believe I have heard every argument that exists against people carrying guns on campus. I would like to respond to a few of them now.
If we just make it harder to get guns, people won’t be able to use them for harm.
There are over 270 million guns in the United States. Statistically it is equivalent to 9 guns for every 10 Americans. As a country, are we naive enough to believe that if someone wants a gun with which to cause harm they will be unable to obtain one?
College students party, get drunk, are often irresponsible we don’t need firearms in this environment.
The argument has never been to allow anyone and everyone to have a gun on campus, merely those lawfully permitted to do so. Individuals who have taken the time to go through the screening process, paid their money and carry on a regular basis behave differently when they are armed. There is a sense of responsibility that is associated with concealed carry and it is felt by those who do.
Indiana law does provide for a pretty simplistic process to obtain a permit, provided there is no major flaw in your background check you will be just fine. If that is the biggest issue, schools could require proof of advanced training and then issue a permit of their own. The issue is that no carry option is available, while I personally would prefer that the state permit be respected on state property any option would trump no option.
Take the SWAT teams, etc... out of the equation for a minute. How are the "good" armed students supposed to identify other "good" armed students from armed "bad guy?" It's not too much of a stretch to see it quickly devolving into the OK Corral.
It is not a stretch to apply the logic you are portraying on every facet of concealed carry statewide, heck nationwide. The difference is, most (and I'm not saying all) but most gun owners who are going to conceal carry take it upon themselves to know the laws associated with carrying the weapon.
In Indiana we are not obligated to retreat; however, we also could not chase them down. We can stand our ground, hold our own and eliminate the threat to the personal safety of ourselves and those around us.
Situation A) Gunman walks into a classroom, raises his weapon and fires. Adult students licensed to carry guns by the state of Indiana draw their weapons and return fire. This is not a moment of mass confusion, everyone in the room knows who the bad man is, in all likelihood the guy falls, if he manages to make it into the hall there is no real pursuit the room has been secured taking a look into the hall if he is not there we don't follow.
Situation B) walking down the hall way, a gunman opens fire, those in the immediate vicinity would be prepared to draw and fire.
Are these situations full proof? No. Is anyone claiming they are? No. The difference is, adult students can be required to huddle defenseless in a classroom, hoping and praying the gunman does not choose that room on that day to barge in. Or, they have a chance to defend themselves and those around them. Are friendly fire casualties possible? Yes. But that is a risk I am personally willing to take to avoid a complete and utter massacre of innocents as has been displayed on multiple occasions on campuses nationwide throughout the past few years.
One of my favorites: “Fort Hood was heavily armed….”
Fort Hood like other army bases is a “gun free zone”. Only MPs and other authorized personnel are permitted to carry weapons. Just like students on an unarmed campus, soldiers had to wait for armed police to come to their rescue.
“Do you want to see us go back to the days where everyone has a gun strapped to their hip? I think this is all alittle unsettling!”
No, I don't believe everyone should have a gun strapped to their hip. Not everyone is comfortable with guns, nor are they comfortable with the immense responsibility that owning/carrying a gun is. That's fine. However there are roughly 270million guns in the United States that is enough for 9 out of every 10 Americans to own a gun.
I believe it is imperative that laws not adhere to the idea that people intent on breaking them can kill people who follow them. What I mean by this is, a sign that says "No firearms on campus" does not disarm those intent on doing wrong, but only those who follow the law.
I would rather there be several law abiding responsible individuals carrying a concealed weapon in my classroom, than for us all to cower in the corner and HOPE the gunman doesn't choose our room.
I understand this note was long, and if you made it this far I congratulate and thank you. Even if I haven’t changed your mind on any of the issues, I hope I have at least presented an idea or a take that you may not have heard before. I would love to have a conversation with those with questions, as the best way to learn is discussion and related research. I am sure I will have more to say on the issues down the road but this has been more than enough for now."
"After taking time to digest my observations and grasp at the logic behind the events of yesterday on the campus of Indiana University-Purdue University in Indianapolis (IUPUI), I have decided to compile my thoughts into the following note. I understand that some will discredit my observations as that of “gun nut” others will herald me as a supporter of the 2nd amendment to keep and bear arms; however, neither of these groups are the ones I hope to influence with this piece. Let those who consider themselves logical, who do not get swept up in the appeals to fear in our society, who look at a problem and survey all the solutions, take my observations to heart. It is my desire that my opinions and observations be examined, thought through, discussed and if it be so alter or strengthen your opinion on gun regulation in the state of Indiana and across the country.
Timeline:
I will first convey the events of the day:
At 12:55pm, as I was getting into my car to head to campus I received the following text, “IUPUI Alert!Man with long gun seen in lot at Barnhill and Vermont. Seek Shelter”
Please note: these alerts are not necessarily out of the ordinary. Whenever a robbery, armed or not occurs on or around campus they go out. The most recent being on March 3rd. Generally the threat is determined to be over within a few minutes and the campus returns to normal. As my class was still 35 minutes away, and because attendance is mandatory, I made the determination to drive to campus anyway.
At approximately 1:17-1:23pm, on my drive in along 11th street, University Blvd, and W North Street, I witnessed no security, no police and countless students meandering around. Granted some of the student’s heads were on a pretty fast swivel, but had I not received the text alert I would never have thought a thing was amiss.
I arrived on campus at 1:24pm and parked in the parking lot between North Street Garage and Blackford Street garage. WTHR was reporting a campus wide lockdown at this point. I walked into the North Street garage as I always do, ascended to the top level and used the hamster tube to walk into the Business and SPEA building. Still no security, no police. The hallway was filled with students, significantly more than normal gazing out the window. Some students might have been afraid, but none were showing it. Instead as I walked towards my classroom I would hear a wise crack or joke about the students that were clearly visible walking outside.
I was in my classroom by 1:31, half the class was missing which was less than I had anticipated. The professor was there, but informed us he had to actually struggle to leave his office as other faculty members strongly advised against it. We sat and talked, still no security, no police.
At around 1:55 a rumor starts to circulate the classroom that shots have been fired. Those of us with laptops have the news websites open and quickly discredit the rumors simply because it has not been reported on.
At 2:03 the following text is received: IUPUI Alert! UPDATE! Police are actively investigating report of an armed individual on campus. Remain in shelter location until an All Clear is received.
Time passes, we watch the students in the hall, and the professor dismisses class realizing that he will never get anything done anyway. He is careful to tell us he is not sure exactly what we should do and therefore to use our best judgment. Still no security, no police.
2:15pm, another student mentions that the news is reporting all the buildings on campus are “locked down”; however, students entering and exiting the SPEA building has not stopped. The doors are not locked, it is free access all around.
At 2:30, a couple students mention that they really have to leave to get to work. A small group of us agree to walk with them to their cars. The plan is to all walk to one car, and then use that car to get to the next and so on. The car is parked in the Barnhill Garage (the supposed ground zero). Still no security, no police.
We begin our walk across campus, using buildings as often as possible to avoid walking outside. We walk out of the business and SPEA building (doors are still unlocked) into Taylor hall (doors are still unlocked), we walk from Taylor to Cavanaugh (doors are still unlocked). We attempt to use the gerbil tube between Cavanaugh and the student center and finally encounter our first locked door. Slightly dismayed we head back outside, walk around Cavanaugh and for the first time we see a police officer, 7 of them in-fact standing or sitting around their squad cars. The time is 2:40pm. As we stand waiting for the light to change, the officers take shotguns out of their cars and enter Cavanaugh, we cross. The student center building is locked at ground level; however, a push of the handicap button and the door swings open. This brings us to Barnhill garage and the end of our journey.
In all we entered 4 buildings, and witnessed others walking into the lecture hall bringing the total of “unsecured” buildings to 5. It also took an hour and 45 minutes before a single police officer was seen by anyone in the SPEA building, and that is only because we left the building. Another student and I, were rather dismayed by the lack of police and security presence and decided to continue walking to make any other observations we could. The majority of the police presence seemed to be concentrated at the entrances to the hospital. Including officers posted in the gerbil tubes leading the hospital.
At 3:30 the following text is sent out: “IUPUI Alert! UPDATE2! If you are not on campus, stay away. If you are on campus remain in shelter location until an All Clear is received.”
Please note: This is the first text that explicitly warns students to stay off campus if they are not already there. While others encouraged students to seek shelter they did not give students a valid or often necessary reason to present to professors to miss class. With this text, it doesn’t matter if the all clear is given at 3:31, students are fully capable of missing their 3:45 class for instance.
The all clear was finally given at 5:06pm: “IUPUI Alert! All Clear is issued regarding the armed individual on campus. Normal campus operations are in effect. Scheduled evening classes are in effect.”
I apologize for the long winded description of events, but I felt it was necessary to understand what I experienced to further understand the mindset from which I am approaching this note.
Questions:
If an individual was actually carrying a “long gun” as described to police (or if he had it in his trunk) was he breaking any laws?
If the police had apprehended the individual and he had not pointed the gun at anyone, nor fired it what could they do?
Did I feel safe?
Do I believe IUPUI’s procedure is up to the task of community wide protection in the case of an active shooter? If not, what could they do better?
Answers:
If an individual was actually carrying a “long gun” as described to police (or if he had it in his trunk) was he breaking any laws? If the police had apprehended the individual and he had not pointed the gun at anyone, nor fired it what could they do?
The simple answer to this question is no, the individual did not break any laws. In the state of Indiana it is not ILLEGAL to carry a gun on campus; however, school policy threatens expulsion if you do. Thus provided the individual did not point the gun at anyone, was not directly asked to leave by a member of the administration or security (trespassing), and did not fire said weapon he/she had broken no law and therefore could not be arrested or charged.
Did I feel safe?
The answer to this question is in two parts. Yes, I felt safe. I felt safe because I did not believe a threat existed. There was no report of an active shooter, there was no report of multiple confirmed sightings. There was one person who thought she saw a gun. This feeling of safety was not brought about by anything the administration, administrators, staff, security or police did. As stated previously security and police presence was not witnessed in my section of campus (just 2 buildings over from ground zero), and the administrators and staff in my building knew less than we did.
Do I believe IUPUI’s procedure is up to the task of community wide protection in the case of an active shooter? If not, what could they do better?
No, IUPUI is not ready for an active shooter situation.
They did a lot of things right:
They called in for assistance from IMPD, Capital police and State troopers without delay.
They issued quick warnings to the student population. The number of phones consistently buzzing from texts, emails and phone calls issuing warnings was impressive.
They did a lot of things wrong:
The warnings were vague and offered no real updates.
There was no visible security presence throughout the campus.
The “gunman” was reported to have been seen near the Barnhill parking lot, yet they were apparently searching the campus for the individual. If they were indeed searching the campus, should not at least a minimal security presence be felt throughout?
The “lockdown” was ineffective. Some buildings were not locked at all, and others were accessible by simply hitting the handicap button. I like the idea of a building going into lockdown, and doors locking so no one can come in, but locks that inefficient do nothing.
If the lack of security on my side of campus implied that the gunman was most certainly on the other, it seems to me that my side should have been evacuated. Having us “seek shelter” in classrooms without locks, in the business and SPEA building, does not provide any real security.
Observations:
The entire campus of a major university, located within a large metropolitan area, was thrown into confusion and fear because of a single sighting of a gun. Why does the glimpse of a single individual with a single gun cause so much fear?
Just last week I got a haircut. While there, the individual in front of me had taken off his jacket, to sit in the chair, clearly displaying his formally concealed handgun. I felt no fear. The hairdressers did not display any apprehension. Why is one gun, on one campus grounds for so much fear?
I present to you that the level of fear caused is directly related to the unarmed condition of the campus. IUPUI, like all other college campuses across the state has declared itself to be a “gun-free zone”. There is no such thing. A gun free zone merely indicates that any individual intent on following the rules and handling their firearms responsibly are not allowed to carry while on campus. A “gun free zone” does not stop individuals seeking to do harm from wielding a gun on campus. In fact, I would argue that it encourages it. A “gun free zone” implies a large amount of defenseless people can be found within. There is simply no one capable of stopping a rampage during the 6-11 minutes police will take to respond.
As I sat in class during the “lockdown” yesterday, I was contemplating the “fish in a barrel” situation that had developed. When I presented my thoughts to those present, I discovered that 7 of the 22 students (including myself) in the class legally possessed a concealed carry permit. Yet all of us were disarmed by the policies of the school.
Despite having a pretty sound knowledge of how other gun owners treat the responsibility of carrying a weapon, I will not even attempt to speak for them, but I can relay my own experience and hope you can learn from it.
I received my concealed carry permit from the state of Indiana 3 months after my 18th birthday. I began practicing with my handgun of choice as often as I could afford. I promised myself I would not carry until I was fully confident in my ability to clean, draw, aim and fire my weapon without fail every time. I have been carrying concealed for three and a half years now. I carry everywhere I go, except for school. Essentially if I am wearing jeans, and I’m not on campus I am armed. It is just a way of life. Do I have any desire to ever be forced to use my weapon? Absolutely not. I would rather go my entire life never having to draw it, but I will if I have to.
I made the determination never to allow myself, or those around me, to be a victim. The pain I will feel if I am forced to use my gun in self-defense will be great. But it can never compare to the regret and agony I would feel if I allowed myself or someone I love to be hurt or killed in something I could have stopped.
One of the hardest decisions I make, is to take my gun off when going to school. Yet I am forced to do it every time. When I remove my gun, I am trusting an institution with my safety. An institution who has stated that it cannot be everywhere at every time. An institution whose handbook recommends the following for an active shooter scenario: "If there is absolutely no opportunity for escape or hiding, it might be possible to negotiate with the shooter; attempting to overpower the shooter with force should be considered a very last resort, after all other options have been exhausted."
On March 3rd, the statement was made in one of the IUPUI alert e-mails,
“Go with your instincts, but be realistic about your ability to fight off someone; your instinct may be to run, scream, kick, hit or bite. However you decide to respond, be sure you do so with full commitment of your effort.
Try to remember as many details as possible and alert Police as soon as possible. Your goal should be to escape safely and survive.”
We witnessed today the speed at which police move across campus while searching for a shooter, I do not wish to try and negotiate, run, scream, kick, hit or bite for that amount of time.
Over the past 24 hours, I believe I have heard every argument that exists against people carrying guns on campus. I would like to respond to a few of them now.
If we just make it harder to get guns, people won’t be able to use them for harm.
There are over 270 million guns in the United States. Statistically it is equivalent to 9 guns for every 10 Americans. As a country, are we naive enough to believe that if someone wants a gun with which to cause harm they will be unable to obtain one?
College students party, get drunk, are often irresponsible we don’t need firearms in this environment.
The argument has never been to allow anyone and everyone to have a gun on campus, merely those lawfully permitted to do so. Individuals who have taken the time to go through the screening process, paid their money and carry on a regular basis behave differently when they are armed. There is a sense of responsibility that is associated with concealed carry and it is felt by those who do.
Indiana law does provide for a pretty simplistic process to obtain a permit, provided there is no major flaw in your background check you will be just fine. If that is the biggest issue, schools could require proof of advanced training and then issue a permit of their own. The issue is that no carry option is available, while I personally would prefer that the state permit be respected on state property any option would trump no option.
Take the SWAT teams, etc... out of the equation for a minute. How are the "good" armed students supposed to identify other "good" armed students from armed "bad guy?" It's not too much of a stretch to see it quickly devolving into the OK Corral.
It is not a stretch to apply the logic you are portraying on every facet of concealed carry statewide, heck nationwide. The difference is, most (and I'm not saying all) but most gun owners who are going to conceal carry take it upon themselves to know the laws associated with carrying the weapon.
In Indiana we are not obligated to retreat; however, we also could not chase them down. We can stand our ground, hold our own and eliminate the threat to the personal safety of ourselves and those around us.
Situation A) Gunman walks into a classroom, raises his weapon and fires. Adult students licensed to carry guns by the state of Indiana draw their weapons and return fire. This is not a moment of mass confusion, everyone in the room knows who the bad man is, in all likelihood the guy falls, if he manages to make it into the hall there is no real pursuit the room has been secured taking a look into the hall if he is not there we don't follow.
Situation B) walking down the hall way, a gunman opens fire, those in the immediate vicinity would be prepared to draw and fire.
Are these situations full proof? No. Is anyone claiming they are? No. The difference is, adult students can be required to huddle defenseless in a classroom, hoping and praying the gunman does not choose that room on that day to barge in. Or, they have a chance to defend themselves and those around them. Are friendly fire casualties possible? Yes. But that is a risk I am personally willing to take to avoid a complete and utter massacre of innocents as has been displayed on multiple occasions on campuses nationwide throughout the past few years.
One of my favorites: “Fort Hood was heavily armed….”
Fort Hood like other army bases is a “gun free zone”. Only MPs and other authorized personnel are permitted to carry weapons. Just like students on an unarmed campus, soldiers had to wait for armed police to come to their rescue.
“Do you want to see us go back to the days where everyone has a gun strapped to their hip? I think this is all alittle unsettling!”
No, I don't believe everyone should have a gun strapped to their hip. Not everyone is comfortable with guns, nor are they comfortable with the immense responsibility that owning/carrying a gun is. That's fine. However there are roughly 270million guns in the United States that is enough for 9 out of every 10 Americans to own a gun.
I believe it is imperative that laws not adhere to the idea that people intent on breaking them can kill people who follow them. What I mean by this is, a sign that says "No firearms on campus" does not disarm those intent on doing wrong, but only those who follow the law.
I would rather there be several law abiding responsible individuals carrying a concealed weapon in my classroom, than for us all to cower in the corner and HOPE the gunman doesn't choose our room.
I understand this note was long, and if you made it this far I congratulate and thank you. Even if I haven’t changed your mind on any of the issues, I hope I have at least presented an idea or a take that you may not have heard before. I would love to have a conversation with those with questions, as the best way to learn is discussion and related research. I am sure I will have more to say on the issues down the road but this has been more than enough for now."
Good point. I'll see what I can get my hands on.
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Just askin', not handing out homework assignments.
1. Start with finding out who called it in.
2. Find out how they are related to IUPUI adminstration.
3. Find out what the enemy's radio traffic has been saying about stirring up false reports.
4. See if the complaintant is related to the enemy in any way.
5. Any chatter on the IUPUI faculty e-mail list about "concealed carry" on campus and how to stop it.
1. Start with finding out who called it in.
2. Find out how they are related to IUPUI adminstration.
3. Find out what the enemy's radio traffic has been saying about stirring up false reports.
4. See if the complaintant is related to the enemy in any way.
5. Any chatter on the IUPUI faculty e-mail list about "concealed carry" on campus and how to stop it.
Just askin', not handing out homework assignments.
1. Start with finding out who called it in.
2. Find out how they are related to IUPUI adminstration.
3. Find out what the enemy's radio traffic has been saying about stirring up false reports.
4. See if the complaintant is related to the enemy in any way.
5. Any chatter on the IUPUI faculty e-mail list about "concealed carry" on campus and how to stop it.
Apparently, from what I'm getting right now is that they don't even know what happened. Supposedly the students know more about it then the faculty/administration. Perhaps an annonymous caller...
I've got someone who's going to try and find out today if they can.
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Unknown caller? Those days are 
ay over.
The po-po will have the phone number. IUPUI will have video.
ay over.The po-po will have the phone number. IUPUI will have video.
Unknown caller? Those days are
The po-po will have the phone number. IUPUI will have video.
Apparently people have been asking for answers and aren't getting anything that we don't already know.
I'm at work today, but if I can't get anything I'll work on it tomorrow when I'm there.
Sorry, but I vehemently disagree, because that 'answer' just isn't gonna cut it.
While I understand (and respect) your position, the flippant response can, quite easily, get someone arrested for carrying on campus. UNLESS there's something stated that a college or university is NOT a "school", for the reasons cited above, it's like considered that they ARE schools.
Up to the individual, of course. But I prefer NOT to bother going to court and spending beaucoup bucks on hiring attorney's to 'prove' I'm 'right'.
And my HIGH suspicion is that IF someone were to get arrested for it, the prosecution is absolutely going to use the same references I did here to support their position that colleges and universities ARE schools.
It would THEN be up to the individual / defendant to provide references (evidence) that colleges and universities are not. So, what is that individual gonna cite? "SOME random guys (even lawyers) on the INGO gun forum SAY colleges and universities are NOT schools. That's good enough for me and I have my rights!". THAT'S their 'defensible' position?
LMAO! "Good luck" with THAT! Obviously, those types have never been in a courtroom, LOL...
There is not a prosecutor in this state that would attempt to file charges on someone carrying a gun on a college campus if that gun is either a long gun or the person possesses an LTCH. Want to know why? Because it's not illegal.Sorry, but I vehemently disagree, because that 'answer' just isn't gonna cut it.
While I understand (and respect) your position, the flippant response can, quite easily, get someone arrested for carrying on campus. UNLESS there's something stated that a college or university is NOT a "school", for the reasons cited above, it's like considered that they ARE schools.
Up to the individual, of course. But I prefer NOT to bother going to court and spending beaucoup bucks on hiring attorney's to 'prove' I'm 'right'.
And my HIGH suspicion is that IF someone were to get arrested for it, the prosecution is absolutely going to use the same references I did here to support their position that colleges and universities ARE schools.
It would THEN be up to the individual / defendant to provide references (evidence) that colleges and universities are not. So, what is that individual gonna cite? "SOME random guys (even lawyers) on the INGO gun forum SAY colleges and universities are NOT schools. That's good enough for me and I have my rights!". THAT'S their 'defensible' position?
LMAO! "Good luck" with THAT! Obviously, those types have never been in a courtroom, LOL...
Sorry, but I vehemently disagree, because that 'answer' just isn't gonna cut it.
While I understand (and respect) your position, the flippant response can, quite easily, get someone arrested for carrying on campus. UNLESS there's something stated that a college or university is NOT a "school", for the reasons cited above, it's like considered that they ARE schools.
Up to the individual, of course. But I prefer NOT to bother going to court and spending beaucoup bucks on hiring attorney's to 'prove' I'm 'right'.
And my HIGH suspicion is that IF someone were to get arrested for it, the prosecution is absolutely going to use the same references I did here to support their position that colleges and universities ARE schools.
It would THEN be up to the individual / defendant to provide references (evidence) that colleges and universities are not. So, what is that individual gonna cite? "SOME random guys (even lawyers) on the INGO gun forum SAY colleges and universities are NOT schools. That's good enough for me and I have my rights!". THAT'S their 'defensible' position?
LMAO! "Good luck" with THAT! Obviously, those types have never been in a courtroom, LOL...
You have it backwards. Definitions include what is specifically enumerated, and do NOT include what is NOT enumerated.
I'll just leave this here:
If this isn't good enough, pay an attorney for his opinion. Oh, wait... you don't want that, either.
How about...
find some Indiana case law wherein someone was convicted specifically for carrying a firearm on a college campus, when that person had a valid license or permit to carry. If it's illegal, surely there will be case law to support that. A lack of case law to support your position in fact supports OUR position that it's not illegal.
Last edited:
Captain Morgan
Sharpshooter
I really hope someone can get their hands on the original police report and can post it up here for all to see.
Last edited:
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
Just suggestion, not assigning homework, but if we ask the media to investigate (television, radio, Star, etc.) this debacle to investigate we'll have some muscle on our side.
Site Supporter
Latest posts
-
Funny Political Picture/Video Thread Part 9** The other side is still making it easy!- Latest: DeadeyeChrista'sdad
-
-
-
-
Staff online
-
d.kaufmanStill Here -
Cameramonkeywww.thechosen.tv
Members online
- Tanfodude
- 9teen56f100
- JoeSig
- citizenkane
- DeadeyeChrista'sdad
- BackFromDC
- profjeremy
- 45sRfun
- adam
- tsm
- 2tonic
- sparkmanrl
- TonyMontana88
- boosteds13cc
- dieselrealtor
- stale_ranch
- Lumpy76
- Redneck97
- Mcoleman85
- Georgemartinn
- typarker
- Bllentz94
- darkkevin
- Devilpig
- BigMoose
- miguel
- wadebuck
- tjones
- Six Forty-Two
- AlienRayGun
- stevezx2
- d.kaufman
- Motor 722
- dmeadlo
- Altrex
- ridetoslide
- oliverscottiii
- bwframe
- Phil502
- PowderApe
- Creedmoor
- Cuasi
- markiemark
- holret
- KoopaKGB
- Dentoro
- Percolater
- Bosshoss
- JDHOOSIER73
- Cameramonkey