And I do not believe much that the Gov. feeds us.
The stats show a decrease but the crimes are far more violent even if there are less of them.
And yes, different times. Freaks are multiplying. JMHO.
Fair points on both counts.
And I do not believe much that the Gov. feeds us.
The stats show a decrease but the crimes are far more violent even if there are less of them.
And yes, different times. Freaks are multiplying. JMHO.
Apparently the "parents" of those poor girls thought the same way. And here we are....
Agreed but these are seriously troubled times. When I was a kid we never ever worried about these predators. Now it seems all to common an occurrence.
We will not let the 10 year old walk to school. Not far really but I take her in the morning and her mother or dad picks her up.
Girls are different from boys.
No one is blaming the parents, but had they made wiser decisions things might be different. We are all accountable for our actions, as troubling as it may be.
If a dedicated predator wants to take a child, he can and there's almost nothing that a parent can do about it unless they are just going to never let them out of the house. The odds of your child being killed with the gun you keep at home are infinitely higher than the odds of this sort of thing happening.
Questioning the wisdom of these parents is in my opinion the exact sort of mentality which says that the risks of having guns are too great, and that has led to current generations who can't function without mommy or daddy as adults.
Crime statistics show that violent crimes have decreased versus past decades. I think our 24/7 news cycle and instant reporting on incidents from all over the world have skewed our perception.
Edit: I think part of the reason violent crime has lessened is because we have wished up as a society. Just 25 years ago I would walk to school by myself. I'd never let my kids do that now. Does this mean my parents were bad parents? Nope, simply a different era.
Gotcha, I'm an anti-gunner because I wouldn't allow my 13 year old daughters to walk the streets or the trails unsupervised.
A dedicated predator goes where they can find prey. In this case it was two unsupervised 13 year old girls. They aren't there and the predator has no prey.
If you really think that a parent can keep their 13-year-old daughter from ever being in a place where a predator could take them, I don't really know that there is a point in continuing here. Never mind that the vast majority of sexual predators are people the parents know and trust...
I agree with those who have said this may be a repeat offender. News articles have stated that they were found 50 feet from the bank of Deer Creek. I have a feeling that the murder wanted them to be found or why wouldn't he have put them in the water to cover up evidence or make it look like a drowning? With that said, I do not know how deep or wide Deer Creek is so I may be off base. It was also mentioned that the trails were a hangout for teens. I would think that the murder is either a local who knows the area or someone who had been casing the area in advance. I am not sure if police were able to track the murders trail from the crime scene, however I would be checking local gas station and restaurants to see if their camera may have caught the murder earlier in the day. Maybe he got gas or a pack of smokes prior to or shortly after the murders or used the restroom to clean up? As the image isn't good and it appears he has a hat or hoodie on, maybe other video footage from the area on that day could give a potential break if the type of clothing was similar and the individual had the hat or hoodie removed.
Girls are different from boys.
No one is blaming the parents, but had they made wiser decisions things might be different. We are all accountable for our actions, as troubling as it may be.
Whats the likelihood of a non-cop blasting someone that turns out to not be the right guy? I bet more than the likelihood of the cops doing it just because.
I initially said something in response to bwframe referencing the parents of the victims and putting the word parents in quotes. The implication was that they weren't really parents because this incident occurred on their watch. I don't disagree that there is much to be learned from this tragedy, but taking cheap shots at the parents when none of us have that much information really isn't helpful or appropriate.So we're having the inane argument where someone suggests that there may have been ways of lessening the risk and then someone accuses them of blaming the victim?
Great. Let's never learn anything from any tragedy.
I initially said something in response to bwframe referencing the parents of the victims and putting the word parents in quotes. The implication was that they weren't really parents because this incident occurred on their watch. I don't disagree that there is much to be learned from this tragedy, but taking cheap shots at the parents when none of us have that much information really isn't helpful or appropriate.
I initially said something in response to bwframe referencing the parents of the victims and putting the word parents in quotes. The implication was that they weren't really parents because this incident occurred on their watch. I don't disagree that there is much to be learned from this tragedy, but taking cheap shots at the parents when none of us have that much information really isn't helpful or appropriate.
QFTI was once in a situation, which I won't go into now, that led to the death of my best friend. It's a period of my life that I will never forget. It has little to do with the situation being discussed but I remember distinctly the Monday morning quarterbacking, 20/20 hindsight, righteous indignation, however you want to characterize it. Of course, none of these people were there and, like in this case, they were more than happy to reach these conclusions on snippets of information, rumors and innuendo. It was not constructive for the widow nor for me or my family. For the families of these two young girls, well, all I feel for these poor, poor people is sympathy. I don't know enough to pass any kind of judgment and probably wouldn't if I did. All I can offer to them is prayers for their healing and the hope that one day the pain will recede at least to some degree. Everyone will decide for themselves the lessons to be gleaned from this terrible tragedy. For anyone to say that they simply must publicly condemn these people so that others might learn from their mistakes is self aggrandizing at best. We don't know who is reading this and we don't know what messages are being passed along. I would hate for anything here to add one tiny bit to these people's burden. But, that's just my opinion.
So we're having the inane argument where someone suggests that there may have been ways of lessening the risk and then someone accuses them of blaming the victim?
Well, this isn't L.A., so...
I will contend otherwise. The fact that we have to discuss this shows that parenting isn't "a given."
No parenting is not a given, but there are places I'd let my kids go at that age that would be considered remote and secluded by some. That area isn't really considered "remote and secluded" or at least not very by quite a few people in that area. From what I understand it's a relatively popular hangout spot for teens and a popular spot for senior year/wedding/etc. pictures. It's not like it sounds on the news, out in the middle of HNF. There is a road off to the side of where they were found and one of the girls lived a mile or so down it off to the side. Think of a rural, rustic, nice, park version of the Monon trail. Here is a link to the google map of the trail they were on.
Apparently the "parents" of those poor girls thought the same way. And here we are...
I would agree with that. look, I have a 13 year old (as well as a 17 year old, 19 year old and 11 year old). I'm not so sure I would drop the kids under about 17 off to walk a public trail by themselves, in fact I know I wouldn't. In fact, I would not be enthused about a pair of 17 year old girls going out. Larger groups, no problem. I don't say this to cause any grief and I certainly understand that different people raise their children differently, as is their right. Certainly, cheap shots are not appropriate and it's way too early to draw too many conclusions. Right now the parents need to be supported and cared for.
I was once in a situation, which I won't go into now, that led to the death of my best friend. It's a period of my life that I will never forget. It has little to do with the situation being discussed but I remember distinctly the Monday morning quarterbacking, 20/20 hindsight, righteous indignation, however you want to characterize it. Of course, none of these people were there and, like in this case, they were more than happy to reach these conclusions on snippets of information, rumors and innuendo. It was not constructive for the widow nor for me or my family. For the families of these two young girls, well, all I feel for these poor, poor people is sympathy. I don't know enough to pass any kind of judgment and probably wouldn't if I did. All I can offer to them is prayers for their healing and the hope that one day the pain will recede at least to some degree. Everyone will decide for themselves the lessons to be gleaned from this terrible tragedy. For anyone to say that they simply must publicly condemn these people so that others might learn from their mistakes is self aggrandizing at best. We don't know who is reading this and we don't know what messages are being passed along. I would hate for anything here to add one tiny bit to these people's burden. But, that's just my opinion.
I was once in a situation, which I won't go into now, that led to the death of my best friend. It's a period of my life that I will never forget. It has little to do with the situation being discussed but I remember distinctly the Monday morning quarterbacking, 20/20 hindsight, righteous indignation, however you want to characterize it. Of course, none of these people were there and, like in this case, they were more than happy to reach these conclusions on snippets of information, rumors and innuendo. It was not constructive for the widow nor for me or my family. For the families of these two young girls, well, all I feel for these poor, poor people is sympathy. I don't know enough to pass any kind of judgment and probably wouldn't if I did. All I can offer to them is prayers for their healing and the hope that one day the pain will recede at least to some degree. Everyone will decide for themselves the lessons to be gleaned from this terrible tragedy. For anyone to say that they simply must publicly condemn these people so that others might learn from their mistakes is self aggrandizing at best. We don't know who is reading this and we don't know what messages are being passed along. I would hate for anything here to add one tiny bit to these people's burden. But, that's just my opinion.
So we're having the inane argument where someone suggests that there may have been ways of lessening the risk and then someone accuses them of blaming the victim?
Great. Let's never learn anything from any tragedy.
.
with your experiences in these matters what would you recommend to parents in regards to vetting or verifying that close family or friends aren't predators? We have taught my daughter to always come tell us if someone even suggests something inappropriate and we use actual words for genatelia and such as to not have any misunderstandings about things if it happens. We learned this from a police officer that travels to the schools and does presentations.C,mon Hough, I know you are a civil guy but I also know you have been around more than long enough to know much better.
All this pontification about being "wiser" and being able to absolutely protect your children is pie in the sky BS which ignores the reality of how children get preyed on.
For example, off the top of my head I can think of multiple local children preyed upon by their biological parent. From dad who needs BJ's from his adolescent daughter, to mom who films the dog with her small children, to mom who rents her daughter out, to dad who engages in a long term sexual relationship with his H.S. aged daughter because they are in love... It happens way more than people realize or want to realize. Hell, every local child murder In my memory was by a biological parent
Add in cousins and uncles, and I'm not even going to start the list.
Add in stepparents and new significant others and we have covered the probably a majority of the cases.
The remainder are mostly all teachers/pastors/family friends/etc.
Then lets address the cases where kids were taken in public. Ooops, we've got none. Not even any kids alone. Not even any real young kids alone.
The reason this case is a huge deal is because it is a REALLY nasty outlier among outliers. How many cases do you think the FBI BAU works a year?
Percentagewise, kids are vastly more likely to be preyed on by a biological parent than taken off a path. Nevermind, relatives/friends/school/church etc.
However, there will always be folks like Bwframe who really really don't want to believe it could ever happen to their children, so they sit here taking potshots at other parents who have lost kids because they can't stomach the idea that that could ever be them.
Its really strange though; I have had to meet with or been present for victim statements of a good number of good parents whose kids got preyed upon. People who did the right things and supervised their children and didn't let them go hiking.
They all say the same damn thing:
"I never imagined that anything like this could ever happen to us; we watched our kids, we took care of them, we never let them go with anyone we didn't trust. We were good parents."
Acting like there is some big lesson here than you will prevent your kids from being victims by not letting them walk without a parent is nothing more than encouraging people to ignore the very REAL threats that are out there and INFINITELY more likely.
Bwframe's claim that he made sure his kids could never be taken advantage of demonstrates the exact attitude which leads people to be terrified they might get hit by lighting while they are happily swimming in a school of pirhanas. I don't say that because I doubt that he was a good parent and did his best, but in reality that level of control does not exist and the idea that anyone has it is fantastical thinking. I guarantee you the bulk of the folks I quoted above felt the same way.
No one is saying not to mitigate risk or try to learn from tragedies but this knee-jerk "wiser parent" stuff is factually complete bull****.
Those parents will grieve for the rest of their lives over the what if's. We cannot change or fix that. There are plenty of people to comfort them.
In the meantime, we can learn from what they could have done differerently. Avoiding parental accountability "for the grieving parents" does not educate other naive parents or save their poor kids from being vulnerable to monsters.
Predators have always existed and always will. Acting like they do not or are so rare that they aren't a threat is foolish (in this case fatal.)
with your experiences in these matters what would you recommend to parents in regards to vetting or verifying that close family or friends aren't predators? We have taught my daughter to always come tell us if someone even suggests something inappropriate and we use actual words for genatelia and such as to not have any misunderstandings about things if it happens. We learned this from a police officer that travels to the schools and does presentations.
So basicly what I'm asking is, was there anything that could have been done by these parents to prevent their children from being victimized by people they knew? I'm not trying to blame the parents I'm just trying to learn from their bad experiences so that it doesn't happen to my kid. If I found out before the police i think the only thing that would keep me from breaking the law and killing someone would be knowing my daughter would need me and her mother together to help her through the process of it all. I would have to give up vengeance in order to put my daughter first.
These things make me sick even thinking about them. But we have to in order to protect our kids from these cowardly losers
What I really want to know is who owns that bridge they keep showing? I can see a big lawsuit there someday! That thing looks scary, 60 feet in the air, broken ties, no rails.........I am amazed CSX(if they still own) would allow people to come on that bridge and even more amazed that Delphi uses it as a trail! They made our park pour new sidewalks because of a trip hazard, can't imagine anyone insuring the owner of this property.
This guy is a dead man walking.....if he has any sense he will kill himself before someone else does.