Trump acting as President

[Woobie]

So Trump's going to raise the taxes again on Carrier to make up for the consequences of making a special deal with them so he can be seen as fulfilling a campaign promise? Otherwise, what the hell are you talking about?

Im not entirely sure how you could infer that from the quoted statement, or anything I've said.

Before we go further, let's clarify who is making what deals: Indiana gave $700k/yr for 10 years in performance based incentives. Indiana has work to do in changing tax policy so our companies are paying the lowest (or no) taxes possible. Done correctly, the revision to our code could basically nullify the incentives we've given Carrier by making the new rates lower than the $7MM.

Then there is Federal policy, which Trump made some promises about yesterday. None of these were specific to Carrier, and so do not apply to the concerns people are voicing.

 

[foszoe]

There are 5 pages here of me arguing every which way that either everyone should get the tax cut or no one.

I didn't say satisfied....just happier.

Guess not!!

 

[Jludo]

I'm wondering if this debate is kind of like what some congressmen go through when first elected. They might go into it with pure intentions and an underlying philosophy but when the first 'deal' comes up they have to make a decision "well this will help 800 very specific people, garner headlines etc." then the next 'deal', then the next...

The best argument I've heard for the deal is that it's a state tax break and states should be able to use tax policy however they want, governors can pick winners and lovers.

 

[jamil]

Sweetheart? $700k/yr linked to metrics is a sweetheart deal? Be serious. Sure, it's nice. But this is more about Pratt & Whitney losing aerospace contracts with the government.

As far as the rest of the questions, I can't answer that. Besides, you wanted to limit the discussion to the deal, not policy.

It was in response to what I thought was a bewildering statement of belief that whatever bad effects of this deal would be erased by future policy. I was showing you the absurd policy that would need to be.

And then you bring P&W into the conversation as evidence of how masterfully Trump controls business? Did we really need even more evidence of cronyism? Is crony capitalism now INGO Trump supporters' preferred economic system? Did you dislike cronyism when it was Obama doing it with green companies, but now that it's your guy doing it with hard manufacturing, it's hunkydory?

I suspect you guys like the idea of Trump so much that you'll accept anything he does as hell-yeah, with a side of awesomesauce.

Trump's gonna make America great again!

Hell yeah.

Trump's gonna make special deals with companies!

Hell yeah.

Trump's gonna use the threat of the presidency to control what companies do!

Hell yeah!

Trump just shot a guy with a towel on his head in the middle of 5th Avenue!

Hell yeah!


C'mon guys. I'm just looking for a sign that you'll hold this guy accountable to the kind of governance required by our constitution.

 

[foszoe]

The best argument I've heard for the deal is that it's a state tax break and states should be able to use tax policy however they want, governors can pick winners and lovers.

That best describes where I sit. The closer to home these deals are made, the more I feel like I have a say in the matter with my opinion and my vote.

 

[Jludo]

I didn't say satisfied....just happier.

Guess not!!

Despite the time I spend on this forum I don't think politics moves the needle on my happiness barometer one way or another. Now getting to play some pickup basketball this afternoon, that'll make me happier.

 

[Jludo]

That best describes where I sit. The closer to home these deals are made, the more I feel like I have a say in the matter with my opinion and my vote.

Keep the crony deals moderated and close to home.
Kind of reminds me of those polls where folks give Congress a terrible approval rating in aggregate but are positive towards their congressman

 

[indiucky]

I came here to see how folks would turn this Carrier deal into a negative and I am glad to see the "Trump sucks no matter what" folks are maintaining their consistency....

Good on you.....Consistency is important...Blind disdain can be a good thing I suppose....

 

[Woobie]

It was in response to what I thought was a bewildering statement of belief that whatever bad effects of this deal would be erased by future policy. I was showing you the absurd policy that would need to be.

And then you bring P&W into the conversation as evidence of how masterfully Trump controls business? Did we really need even more evidence of cronyism? Is crony capitalism now INGO Trump supporters' preferred economic system? Did you dislike cronyism when it was Obama doing it with green companies, but now that it's your guy doing it with hard manufacturing, it's hunkydory?

I suspect you guys like the idea of Trump so much that you'll accept anything he does as hell-yeah, with a side of awesomesauce.

Trump's gonna make America great again!

Hell yeah.

Trump's gonna make special deals with companies!

Hell yeah.

Trump's gonna use the threat of the presidency to control what companies do!

Hell yeah!

Trump just shot a guy with a towel on his head in the middle of 5th Avenue!

Hell yeah!


C'mon guys. I'm just looking for a sign that you'll hold this guy accountable to the kind of governance required by our constitution.

Whoa, slow you're roll there, cowboy. Not my guy. I did not vote for him, and I still have serious questions about him. The point of the P&W statement, which surely you know, is that they already do billions with the Feds. All Trump had to do was explain to United Tech that their P&W business was jeopardized, and they could probably find a way to keep it if they wanted to. That's not cronyism, or you are using a very broad definition of the term. That is what we call negotiating from a superior position.

Indiana can easily reform its tax code to rectify this $7 million, and provide a very competitive, level playing field for our businesses.

But if they do not, and leave it to Bosma to squander a victory for us, then on the state level this is a bad deal. It is not all gloom and doom and dead puppies, as is being held by some. But it is a negative from the perspective of sound economic policy. I will also say, that there are so many of these deals floating around out there that we should hardly be shocked. It's just one of many. Still doesn't make it right.

 

[Woobie]

Here's an example. I worked at this plant.

Plastic Resin News

Over $300,000 in incentives plus "assistance" with a $2.4 mil tax increment financing bond. That was for a purported 32 jobs. And it was really supposed to be closer to 20.

The IEDC did not just wake up and start throwing money at Carrier. As twisted as it sounds, it's almost like the "fair" thing to do at this point is to give everyone incentives. Like you said, nobody is special. That doesn't make it right. It just adds perspective.

 

[Jludo]

I came here to see how folks would turn this Carrier deal into a negative and I am glad to see the "Trump sucks no matter what" folks are maintaining their consistency....

Good on you.....Consistency is important...Blind disdain can be a good thing I suppose....

I think the blind support of Trump is slightly more at play, I thought us free market, no government favoritism folks would stay consistent

 

[Jludo]

I'd also note that if someone in Mexico can do your job for pennies on the dollar, you may receive a few stays of execution but in the not too distant future your job is simply gone and you need to focus on gaining the skills that make you a desired commodity in today's economy.
You know pull yourself up by your bootstraps and all, jobs exist and even older folks are capable of learning new skills (in fact its good for an aging brain)

 

[churchmouse]

Some how these Tax incentives had to already be on the table from previous negotiations. These things do not just "Pop" up and again.....who at the table had this authority fellas....it was not Trump. Look to the sitting state elected officials on this.
As Carson stated so openly they had been negotiating with Carrier since the announcement. This had to be part of the original deal from those people. The "Deal" was most likely forced upon them with the threat of loss of revenues through Gov. contracts.

Will we ever know all the details.........

 

[Jludo]

Here's an example. I worked at this plant.

Plastic Resin News

Over $300,000 in incentives plus "assistance" with a $2.4 mil tax increment financing bond. That was for a purported 32 jobs. And it was really supposed to be closer to 20.

The IEDC did not just wake up and start throwing money at Carrier. As twisted as it sounds, it's almost like the "fair" thing to do at this point is to give everyone incentives. Like you said, nobody is special. That doesn't make it right. It just adds perspective.

Is it not politics to get those incentives? Giving them to literally everyone would be the same as just dropping the tax in the first place, are we saying no one pays these taxes?

 

[Jludo]

Some how these Tax incentives had to already be on the table from previous negotiations. These things do not just "Pop" up and again.....who at the table had this authority fellas....it was not Trump. Look to the sitting state elected officials on this.
As Carson stated so openly they had been negotiating with Carrier since the announcement. This had to be part of the original deal from those people. The "Deal" was most likely forced upon them with the threat of loss of revenues through Gov. contracts.

Will we ever know all the details.........

I agree with that and that Pence had a tad more incentive to get the deal done when his ticket won office.

 

[Woobie]

Is it not politics to get those incentives? Giving them to literally everyone would be the same as just dropping the tax in the first place, are we saying no one pays these taxes?

Im not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying that it is. I'm not saying it is efficient or fair. It just is. I will say it sucks. But it still is.

So just to keep from confusing anyone, let's recap. The incentives are part of current reality. Our tax rate is so high, we compensate by giving these breaks. This creates an environment that at its best causes confusion and unfair advantage, and at its worst opens the door for corruption. The current system, such as it is, was leveraged to keep from shipping jobs across the border.

Dont like it? Republicans control both houses and the governor's mansion. So get cracking with the phone calls and emails. Get a system put in place that flattens and reduces (or eliminates) corporate taxes, as well as eleminating other incentives. Make this and the hundreds of other deals relics of a defunct tax code.

Or just pick this one deal as your cause celeb and whine about it on INGO.

 

[jamil]

Im not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying that it is. I'm not saying it is efficient or fair. It just is. I will say it sucks. But it still is.

So just to keep from confusing anyone, let's recap. The incentives are part of current reality. Our tax rate is so high, we compensate by giving these breaks. This creates an environment that at its best causes confusion and unfair advantage, and at its worst opens the door for corruption. The current system, such as it is, was leveraged to keep from shipping jobs across the border.

Dont like it? Republicans control both houses and the governor's mansion. So get cracking with the phone calls and emails. Get a system put in place that flattens and reduces (or eliminates) corporate taxes, as well as eleminating other incentives. Make this and the hundreds of other deals relics of a defunct tax code.

Or just pick this one deal as your cause celeb and whine about it on INGO.

I thought that it's what we're discussing. One side says it's cronyism. The other side either says, no it's not, or, so what if it is?

 

[foszoe]

Keep the crony deals moderated and close to home.
Kind of reminds me of those polls where folks give Congress a terrible approval rating in aggregate but are positive towards their congressman

Its only crony capitalism if the benefit depends on the relationship. If the local gov't considers each business on equal grounds, it isn't crony capitalism. It is much easier to control gov't the more local it is.

Congress is a national body. Do you have similar data supporting that conclusion for state and county officials?

 

[Woobie]

I thought that it's what we're discussing. One side says it's cronyism. The other side either says, no it's not, or, so what if it is?

Cronyism has lost its meaning, just like every other buzz word. Did Trump or Pence do this only because they're euchre partners with a "C" level exec at United Tech? Did Trump's kids receive a spot on the board there? I doubt it. So let's stop using the wrong words. Let's use a more accurate term that actually describes what is happening. Maybe a violation of equal protection under the law or something. Or a broken tax code used for political expediency.

Regardless, the tax code is what it is, and it needs to be changed. In the mean time, a broken system was used in a way that kept jobs in Indiana. That isn't all bad. Before we put the cart before the horse, then beat the horse after its dead, why not see what happens (and lobby for what we want to happen) when Trump and Pence take office.

 

[jamil]

Cronyism has lost its meaning, just like every other buzz word. Did Trump or Pence do this only because they're euchre partners with a "C" level exec at United Tech? Did Trump's kids receive a spot on the board there? I doubt it. So let's stop using the wrong words. Let's use a more accurate term that actually describes what is happening. Maybe a violation of equal protection under the law or something. Or a broken tax code used for political expediency.

Regardless, the tax code is what it is, and it needs to be changed. In the mean time, a broken system was used in a way that kept jobs in Indiana. That isn't all bad. Before we put the cart before the horse, then beat the horse after its dead, why not see what happens (and lobby for what we want to happen) when Trump and Pence take office.

No. Crony Capitalism means the same thing it's always meant. It's not like porn where you have to see it to recognize it. There is a definition. Apply that definition to this situation and it fits pretty clearly.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=crony+capitalism