To Mask or Not to Mask?

[T.Lex]

... I stopped letting people control me that way sometime shortly after puberty...

So was that last week or the week before?



[I keed, I keed....]

 

[two70]

You apparently haven't read any of my posts... I think masks are a good idea, like seat belts... no mandate/law needed for either, but Darwin, like karma, can be a b*tch.

So, again wear a mask 24/7 or it does no good at all?

Is a mask simply a talisman or is it supposed to be PPE? One doesn't remove PPE in the middle of a dangerous situation (in this case being in close proximity to other people) merely to take a sip of water, one waits until they are out of the situation to remove the PPE. Put another way, if the risk is so low that removing the mask did not significantly reduce safety, then wearing it didn't significantly increase safety in the first place.

I think Darwin applies more to those that put themselves into potentially risky situations and expect a thin piece of cloth to protect them or others from them.

 

[idkfa]

Including childish name calling as you do below...

Oh, and "mask critics" is not a name? What about "antimaskers"? Then it'll be "those cockroach antimaskers".
Dehumanization is one of the stages of genocide.
Personally, I'm done pulling my punches.

And, if you have a link to an actual study that shows three ply surgical masks have no effect, please share...

One of many (but it's a review, so it is discussing many):
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

In this review, we did not find evidence to support a protective effect of personal protective measures or environmental measures in reducing influenza transmission. Although these measures have mechanistic support based on our knowledge of how influenza is transmitted from person to person, randomized trials of hand hygiene and face masks have not demonstrated protection against laboratory-confirmed influenza, with 1 exception

But even that is besides the point.
Most importantly, the burden of proof is on those who want to violate people's constitutional freedoms.
They. Provided. None.

Ummm... I didn't obey when "they" said NOT to wear a mask... nor will I stop wearing them simply because they now TELL me to. I stopped letting people control me that way sometime shortly after puberty...

This is besides the point.
The conversation is turning into a verbal fencing match precisely because it is not a matter of choice anymore.
Whether or not you personally want to wear a mask is irrelevant.
What is relevant, is that you somehow are willing to defend Fauci's blatant hypocrisy and completely disregard utter idiocy of the mask mandates and/or recommendations as implemented.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Is a mask simply a talisman or is it supposed to be PPE? One doesn't remove PPE in the middle of a dangerous situation (in this case being in close proximity to other people) merely to take a sip of water, one waits until they are out of the situation to remove the PPE. Put another way, if the risk is so low that removing the mask did not significantly reduce safety, then wearing it didn't significantly increase safety in the first place.

Removing his mask momentarily to drink water while seated next to one non-household member is some level of risk. Walking through Lowe's at 7 am when there are maybe a dozen customers in the whole place is a different level of risk. Going into a Dollar General store with the a couple dozen other people is another level of risk. Going everywhere and doing everything we did before is another level of risk.

Doing any or all of the above in a city, county or area that has low levels/rates of infection is one level of risk... doing the same in an area where the infection rates are spiking is a different level of risk.

Spin the wheel enough times and the number will come up...

I think Darwin applies more to those that put themselves into potentially risky situations and expect a thin piece of cloth to protect them or others from them.

I agree... those who think a cloth mask makes them 100% immune are just plain wrong.

 

[idkfa]

So, even healthcare professionals in a COVID ward should ditch their N95s?

ETA: And when N95s were in short supply, I sure saw a crap ton of HCPs wearing surgical masks...

Misleading.
I said general population deliberately.
In a healthcare setting, both surgical and N95 masks do appear to have some protective effect.

Meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) indicated a protective effect of masks and respirators against clinical respiratory illness (CRI) and influenza-like illness (ILI). Compared to masks, N95 respirators conferred superior protection against CRI (RR = 0.47; 95% CI: 0.36–0.62) and laboratory-confirmed bacterial, but not viral infections or ILI.

While tempting, this should not be inferred to the general population. I addressed the latter in my other comment, but here it is nonetheless: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

 

[foszoe]

One is a “health expert”.

The other is not.

Trump is a health expert?

 

[foszoe]

This is exactly the problem: ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY.
Fauci, NIAID, and CDC have zero accountability.
Hell, even "elected officials" have zero accountability.
They just say "oops, the models were wrong."

This is the root of the problem with "rule by executive order": the entire system of lawmaking is bypassed. No witnesses, no checks, no balances.
Your average "elected official" is suddenly burdened with understanding science.
They don't bother. They just look for what they think is formidable defense in the eyes of their voters, that's all.
And since (1) most of them have long forgotten what they said in that pesky oath of office and (2) a padded room in a mental asylum is the safest place, they will inevitably model their jurisdictions after asylums.

Can Trump fire them?

 

[printcraft]

Trump is a health expert?

Let me help...

Originally Posted by Hatin Since 87
One is a “health expert”. - fauci


The other is not. - Trump

fauci should follow his own advice since he is the high exalted grand expert, he should know better...
or at least live under the same rules he is in favor of mandating for the rest of us.

Some animals are more equal than others.

You already knew this though.

 

[JCSR]

BREAKING NEWS.........don't think this is a dupe.

Indiana governor drops mask violator penalty after criticism

https://www.wdrb.com/news/indiana-g...cle_56d4579c-0652-556b-9cac-f9225abee76d.html

 

[idkfa]

Removing his mask momentarily to drink water while seated next to one non-household member is some level of risk. Walking through Lowe's at 7 am when there are maybe a dozen customers in the whole place is a different level of risk. Going into a Dollar General store with the a couple dozen other people is another level of risk. Going everywhere and doing everything we did before is another level of risk.

This is, by definition, conjecture.
Is there a numeric risk difference? Well, probably. Enough of a difference to, you know, make a difference?
This is completely dependent on the circumstances. Mask, soaked with moisture from breath and pathogens from the air, becomes a secondary source of infection. When the mask is lowered to the chin level, its outside surface is positioned directly under the nose.
Minimal infective dose for a virus is minute and can fit into one aerosolized droplet. ONE.
Thus which of these activities presents the lower level of risk? Any of them?

Doing any or all of the above in a city, county or area that has low levels/rates of infection is one level of risk... doing the same in an area where the infection rates are spiking is a different level of risk.

Conjecture. So which one: state, county or area? For whom? For a healthy person under 55? None of them.

I agree... those who think a cloth mask makes them 100% immune are just plain wrong.

But that is how things are. AR15 is not an assault weapon, but that is how it is perceived.
Needless to say, reality is very different from one's expectations, especially when said expectations are based on measures more contrived than the pretext to send troops to Iraq.

 

[printcraft]

BREAKING NEWS.........don't think this is a dupe.

Indiana governor drops mask violator penalty after criticism

https://www.wdrb.com/news/indiana-g...cle_56d4579c-0652-556b-9cac-f9225abee76d.html

Guy folded like a cheap facemask...

Still, anybody that would think that was a good idea and try to implement it is not fit to govern.

F.O.

 

[idkfa]

Can Trump fire them?

Trump retained Collins as the head of the NIH, and I surmise (I couldn't find a conclusive source) Collins (and some committee?) in turn would be the one responsible for hiring (and firing) people for director-level positions for each of the NIH institutes.
But firing ANYONE at the NIH is a pain in the butt -- and in case of such media darling as Fauci, it's political suicide (in my opinion).

Naturally, he can't fire governors or mayors, lol.

Could he influence all of these people? Sure. Does he? He appears to be, at times, and they usually do bend the knee (most recently, even mayor Beetlejuice of Chicago).

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Oh, and "mask critics" is not a name? What about "antimaskers"? Then it'll be "those cockroach antimaskers".
Dehumanization is one of the stages of genocide.
Personally, I'm done pulling my punches.

Hmmm... I figured "mask critics" was less inflammatory and more accurate than "anti-maskers"... go figure!

One of many (but it's a review, so it is discussing many):
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

It's a meta-analysis... none of the individual studies showed statistical for or against. (ETA:correction, one of the studies didn't show both FOR and AGAINST in the confidence interval) In fact, the confidence interval on every one of them ranged from highly protective to very bad, causing way more infections than doing nothing. Even the meta-analysis showed a range of 49% reduction (RR = 0.51) to 20% increase (RR = 1.2). One of the individual studies (McIntyre et al) indicated that mask wearing and hand washing could REDUCE the rate by 99% (RR = 0.01) or INCREASE the rate by 8 times (RR = 7.96). Pretty much the definition of statistically meaningless results from a poorly designed and populated study.

But even that is besides the point.
Most importantly, the burden of proof is on those who want to violate people's constitutional freedoms.
They. Provided. None.

This is besides the point.
The conversation is turning into a verbal fencing match precisely because it is not a matter of choice anymore.

Please read my prior posts, including my responses to you. I am pro-mask AND anti-mandate... barking up the wrong tree.

Whether or not you personally want to wear a mask is irrelevant.

Correct, what I want or don't IS irrelevant... what I think is prudent for me and mine in the world today is relevant to me and mine. With what's available today, I think that's a 3 ply surgical mask with a Yowie (neck gaiter/half balaclava) over the top to prevent air gaps around the sides... in my personal experience, that leads to breathing through the mask and not around it... and THAT is exactly what I will do regardless of what TPTB say or anyone else for that matter.

What is relevant, is that you somehow are willing to defend Fauci's blatant hypocrisy and completely disregard utter idiocy of the mask mandates and/or recommendations as implemented.

Hey, I called fake news when the MSM selectively showed Trump dumping fish food in Japan... this is no different.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Guy folded like a cheap facemask...

Still, anybody that would think that was a good idea and try to implement it is not fit to govern.

F.O.

He folded once in issuing the mandate and folded again in retracting it, lol! Spineless both ways...

And I'll agree... Holcomb is the worst... except for whoever he runs against from the other major party, so I'll likely hold my nose until or unless a viable third party candidate arises.

 

[JCSR]

Guy folded like a cheap facemask...

Still, anybody that would think that was a good idea and try to implement it is not fit to govern.

F.O.

I folded too. I had promised myself I was staying out of this thread. Yet here I am.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I folded too. I had promised myself I was staying out of this thread. Yet here I am.

Welcome back, Spanky... we missed ya!

And, ditto! Lol!

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This is, by definition, conjecture.
Is there a numeric risk difference? Well, probably. Enough of a difference to, you know, make a difference?
This is completely dependent on the circumstances. Mask, soaked with moisture from breath and pathogens from the air, becomes a secondary source of infection. When the mask is lowered to the chin level, its outside surface is positioned directly under the nose.
Minimal infective dose for a virus is minute and can fit into one aerosolized droplet. ONE.
Thus which of these activities presents the lower level of risk? Any of them?


Conjecture. So which one: state, county or area? For whom? For a healthy person under 55? None of them.


But that is how things are. AR15 is not an assault weapon, but that is how it is perceived.
Needless to say, reality is very different from one's expectations, especially when said expectations are based on measures more contrived than the pretext to send troops to Iraq.

Conjecture? It's the definition of level of risk... how many people, how close and how long... plus air circulation.

Doing that in empty stands seated next to one non-household member is not the same as doing the same in the middle of a COVID ward, or having just came out of same with high levels of contagion of your mask.

Unmasked or cloth mask at the Lowe's outdoor section for 15 minutes is not the same level of risk as unmasked in a packed bar for 3 hours.

 

[idkfa]

Conjecture? It's the definition of level of risk... how many people, how close and how long... plus air circulation.

Doing that in empty stands seated next to one non-household member is not the same as doing the same in the middle of a COVID ward, or having just came out of same with high levels of contagion of your mask.

Unmasked or cloth mask at the Lowe's outdoor section for 15 minutes is not the same level of risk as unmasked in a packed bar for 3 hours.

Are we in the COVID ward now?
Those goalposts are on a truck doing 90 mph!
And yes, until you have a pertinent risk assessment study, whatever you said is no more than opinion and conjecture.
But then again, since you affirm a study is "poorly designed and populated" simply because it yields statistically insignificant results (and lack of significance does not automatically imply results are "meaningless" -- especially if it happens in several studies), this conversation suddenly becomes even more pointless.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

For anyone lurking who is interested in 3-ply masks and wondering what to look for, whether their any good or not since they are all marked non-medical... here's a resource I found useful:

https://medium.com/@jayaone12345/ho...it-before-you-place-large-orders-332c4231a897

 

[terrehautian]

I don’t care if it is real or not, I’m going for least compliance as I can. Those boxes also say destroy after single use, I’m going to reuse it for 3 days plus. I haven’t wore a mask other then recently to date a majority of the time and haven’t had an issue, no reason to think just faking it to say won’t now. If meijers didn’t charge for shopping service, I wouldn’t worry.