The massacre at Fort Hood and Muslim soldiers with attitude

[SavageEagle]

Why are people trying to apologize on behalf of other people? Why is anyone here saying that there are those in the Muslim community that are not like this and denounce this sort of stuff?

Let them say that. I haven't seen ANY Muslim come out and say this is disgusting, despicable, and disgraceful. Not one. I've been watching CNN and MSNBC too and I've yet to see one come on TV and speak out against it. I've seen a lot of overseas Muslims celebrating and now the ones in New York celebrating, but not yet seen any speak out against it.

Is this not telling you all something? Sure, I'm sure there's some out there who are appalled by this, but where are they? Why haven't we seen them or heard them? Anyone can YouTube themselves.

 

[cce1302]

Why are people trying to apologize on behalf of other people? Why is anyone here saying that there are those in the Muslim community that are not like this and denounce this sort of stuff?

Let them say that. I haven't seen ANY Muslim come out and say this is disgusting, despicable, and disgraceful. Not one. I've been watching CNN and MSNBC too and I've yet to see one come on TV and speak out against it. I've seen a lot of overseas Muslims celebrating and now the ones in New York celebrating, but not yet seen any speak out against it.

Is this not telling you all something? Sure, I'm sure there's some out there who are appalled by this, but where are they? Why haven't we seen them or heard them? Anyone can YouTube themselves.

There's something vague on Reuters.
Motive probed in Fort Hood shooting rampage | Reuters

American Muslim groups expressed regret and stressed that the incident appeared to have been carried out by a single disturbed individual.

"Thousands of Arab Americans and American Muslims serve honorably every day in all four branches of the U.S. military and in the National Guard," the Arab American Institute said.

More here:
The Arab American Institute

 

[SavageEagle]

There's something vague on Reuters.
Motive probed in Fort Hood shooting rampage | Reuters

Multiple shooting incidents are not uncommon in the United States, where there are relatively lax gun controls.


Fort Hood personnel have accounted for more suicides than any other Army post since the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, with 75 tallied through July of this year.


Fort Hood, about 60 miles from the state capital Austin, is home to about 50,000 troops.

This is an apologist's article. They are trying to justify the shooter's actions by saying it's related to post-combat stress. Yet he'd never been deployed. He was pissed that America was over there killing Muslims and did not want to be deployed to do the same. So instead of killing his brethren, he killed those who he thought were the "Aggressors".

(Not directed at you cce) For those who don't know, we call those guys terrorists, not lone gunmen.

More here:
The Arab American Institute

And my thanks and appreciation go out to all those Muslims who honorably serve. I have nothing wrong with the people so long as they are not about honor killing, down with America, or any of the other non-sense these terrorists are about.

I do find it curious that they are supportive of the Patriot Act, or, reforming it, as their website says at the bottom. I would think that, like any other Freedom loving American, they would be against it in its entirety.

 

[techres]

Why are people trying to apologize on behalf of other people? Why is anyone here saying that there are those in the Muslim community that are not like this and denounce this sort of stuff?

I am not apologizing on the behalf of others. I am telling what I have found from meeting with and getting to know actual Muslims. Call it intel, call it bridge building, call it whatever you want, but most off all call it doing something. As a result I have learned a few things first hand from Americans who are also Muslims and was trying to pass that along. I would think that info would be useful, but if not, move along nothing to see here.

Let them say that. I haven't seen ANY Muslim come out and say this is disgusting, despicable, and disgraceful. Not one. I've been watching CNN and MSNBC too and I've yet to see one come on TV and speak out against it. I've seen a lot of overseas Muslims celebrating and now the ones in New York celebrating, but not yet seen any speak out against it.

Do you go on TV every time a nutjob shoots up an office and apologize? Should you? Should the NRA? Is that the job of anyone other than the individual who committed the crime?

I cannot speak for murders and neither can anyone else.

Now I DO think there is merit in the mentioned study as a continuing issue. There MUST be talking out against terrorism and calling all forms of terrorism by their true names. People must be honest about it. And trust me, I have sat at the dinner table and broken bread in order to have this VERY conversation. And those times have been VERY uncomfortable and heated. But again, having those talks is actually doing something and trying to bring actual people to actual account about what they allow in their community.

And I would do the same in my own community: calling words to account, etc. Frankly, it would be easier to just not post some days.

Is this not telling you all something? Sure, I'm sure there's some out there who are appalled by this, but where are they? Why haven't we seen them or heard them? Anyone can YouTube themselves.

That is true, and that is important, and I share that same frustration. Here in Bloomington we should see more of this, even though they are not required to do it to prove loyalty, or to prove anything really. They should just be moved to do it. But, like we do in our own community, there is a price to pay if you wander outside and lauder the dirty linens in public.

It is easier to stay quiet, keep your head down, and let the party line and the louder voices carry the day. Especially in a community where you could just get hurt. Hurt bad.

I am very split on this. The salvation must come from inside the community and it can only come with outside support. I am just as frustrated as others by the common, "it's ok to do terrorism if XYZ" rather than "terrorism is always bad." I even ruined a very nice community dinner by asking a table full of nice people that if they could bring peace to the entire Middle East by taking that kid over there [pointing at a 4 year old playing] into the front yard and putting a bullet in his head, would that be ok? Or is murder of children just plain old murder? I was not invited back for another conversation.

I have every bit of respect for the soldiers here on the board, as well as the others who have had to endure the insanity of muslim nations and their midieval ways of life. I can only imagine.

At the same time, I see our home grown Muslim terrroists as a different category of problem and not a problem among 100% of Muslims. Their community is huge and possible to bring into the modern day in order to save it. They must do 99% of the work, but I want to encourage them and remind them of what words mean in order to keep them honest.

Finally, I am very concerned anytime a whole category of people is to have XYZ done to them because they are that people. As a Jew that scares the crap out of me. As a libertarian that offends and concerns me to the core. And as a person, it just seems lazy and useless in the real world.

Do we have a huge problem? Yes.
Can we solve it? Yes, I hope.
Can we do it without being able to ID friend from foe? No.

 

[techres]

This is an apologist's article. They are trying to justify the shooter's actions by saying it's related to post-combat stress. Yet he'd never been deployed. He was pissed that America was over there killing Muslims and did not want to be deployed to do the same. So instead of killing his brethren, he killed those who he thought were the "Aggressors".

(Not directed at you cce) For those who don't know, we call those guys terrorists, not lone gunmen.

Agreed, they are lone terrorists. This was not PTSD, this was decided butchery. This was not "snapping", it was chosen with clarity.

He was a butcher and is hopefully paying for it now in the next world.

As for what the Army does next, I hope they are beginning to correlate the data from this guy, and the others we have had here at home and are beginning to get some stuff to look out for. No easy task.

Furthermore, this is another case where the Muslim community must start getting a red flag ability of their own. Just like we usually have here, there are conversations that lead to bad places and any acceptance of that chatter is not only uncool, it is dangerous. They need to self police, just like we do.

 

[SavageEagle]

I don't go on TV and apologize for a normal murdering base tard because he's not going out and declaring to the world GLORY BE TO THE GUN OWNERS AND THE GUN!

This guy went out and declared this to be for God, in his case, Allah. When a Catholic priest molests some poor boy, you see the Church come out and condem the man for his actions. When an Christian man slaughters a school full of amish children, all kinds of people speak out against it. And then donate time and money and anything else to help. When gang members go off and start a gang war, black people all over the Country go out and denounce the actions.

So we should just trust that Muslims everywhere are so against what this man did when all we really see are Muslims all over the world dancing for joy that America got attacked yet again?

 

[SavageEagle]

Agreed, they are lone terrorists. This was not PTSD, this was decided butchery. This was not "snapping", it was chosen with clarity.

He was a butcher and is hopefully paying for it now in the next world.

As for what the Army does next, I hope they are beginning to correlate the data from this guy, and the others we have had here at home and are beginning to get some stuff to look out for. No easy task.

Furthermore, this is another case where the Muslim community must start getting a red flag ability of their own. Just like we usually have here, there are conversations that lead to bad places and any acceptance of that chatter is not only uncool, it is dangerous. They need to self police, just like we do.

Now this I can completely agree with. I hope they seriously take a long hard look at anyone and everyone who may be questionable in the same manner as this nutjob. There were more than a few tale tale signs from him and it baffles me no one thought to look at him a bit harder.

 

[cce1302]

This is an apologist's article. They are trying to justify the shooter's actions by saying it's related to post-combat stress. Yet he'd never been deployed. He was pissed that America was over there killing Muslims and did not want to be deployed to do the same. So instead of killing his brethren, he killed those who he thought were the "Aggressors".

(Not directed at you cce) For those who don't know, we call those guys terrorists, not lone gunmen.



And my thanks and appreciation go out to all those Muslims who honorably serve. I have nothing wrong with the people so long as they are not about honor killing, down with America, or any of the other non-sense these terrorists are about.

I do find it curious that they are supportive of the Patriot Act, or, reforming it, as their website says at the bottom. I would think that, like any other Freedom loving American, they would be against it in its entirety.

Yeah I'm trying to keep my opinion to a minimum on this thread, but I pretty much agree with everything you've said, SE. I was wincing at the stupidity in the article that I quoted and in the AAI link.

 

[ihateiraq]

all the talk about not stereotyping is what allowed this to happen. people are so scared to do anything because they dont want to step on peoples toes or be seen as insensitive they ignored the signs. and im sure all throughout the military things like that are being let go. its ridiculous, and it makes me furious. all those soldiers were killed bc this piece of ****s rights were held above all sensibilities. i hope the armys balls drop and they put him in front of a firing squad composed of the dead soldiers units and families.

 

[techres]

all the talk about not stereotyping is what allowed this to happen. people are so scared to do anything because they dont want to step on peoples toes or be seen as insensitive they ignored the signs. and im sure all throughout the military things like that are being let go. its ridiculous, and it makes me furious. all those soldiers were killed bc this piece of ****s rights were held above all sensibilities. i hope the armys balls drop and they put him in front of a firing squad composed of the dead soldiers units and families.

I am sure they are looking for every hint or sign this guy gave off before the attack. Running blog, strange work comments, odd behavior, etc.

 

[Jay]

No prompting for this, but I cut things a bit coarse in some of my posts in this thread. I should have taken it to a PM. Apologies not for what I said, but the way I said it.

 

[jedi]

Does military have the death sentence?


SOURCE:Army: Shooting suspect taken off ventilator - Yahoo! News

FORT HOOD, Texas – A U.S. Army spokesman says the man authorities say went on a shooting spree at Fort Hood has been taken off a ventilator but still remains in intensive care at a military hospital.
Spokesman Col. John Rossi told reporters on Saturday at Fort Hood that he is not sure if Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan is able to communicate.
Hasan was shot during an exchange of gunfire during Thursday's attack. The military moved him on Friday to Brooke Medical Center in San Antonio, about 150 miles southwest of Fort Hood. Army officials have said Hasan is "not able to converse."
Thirteen people were killed and 29 others wounded in Thursday's attack at Fort Hood.

This got me thinking of several things.
1) Say the suspect does recover. Since he was active duty he will be court marshaled right? If found guilty will it be life in military prison or does the military have the death sentence? If death sentence what type? Injection? Gas chamber? Hanging? Firing squad? Etc...

2) I understand that the current doctors right now who are looking at him (the suspect) are just doing their job. But why did the first responders save him? What is the point? Look at all the $$$ we are spending on bring him back only to a) have him spend the rest of his life in jail or to kill him?

Could they (1st responders medical people) not have perhaps saved someone else instead of him? Or is it that by him living we can learn more about why he did it and perhaps learn to protect ourselves from it occurring again?


No mater what we learn from him it will happen again since there is no way to pretend this type of crime from occurring 100%. Yes there are ways to lower the chance of it happening. AKA if everyone OC everywhere it would be a bit harder for this to occur. Not to say some crazy still won't open fire but with so many guns pointing back that crazy is not going to take that many and that crazy may just think twice and instead commit suicide some other way (jump in front of train, hanging, etc..)

 

[SavageEagle]

SOURCE:Army: Shooting suspect taken off ventilator - Yahoo! News



This got me thinking of several things.
1) Say the suspect does recover. Since he was active duty he will be court marshaled right? If found guilty will it be life in military prison or does the military have the death sentence? If death sentence what type? Injection? Gas chamber? Hanging? Firing squad? Etc...

2) I understand that the current doctors right now who are looking at him (the suspect) are just doing their job. But why did the first responders save him? What is the point? Look at all the $$$ we are spending on bring him back only to a) have him spend the rest of his life in jail or to kill him?

Could they (1st responders medical people) not have perhaps saved someone else instead of him? Or is it that by him living we can learn more about why he did it and perhaps learn to protect ourselves from it occurring again?


No mater what we learn from him it will happen again since there is no way to pretend this type of crime from occurring 100%. Yes there are ways to lower the chance of it happening. AKA if everyone OC everywhere it would be a bit harder for this to occur. Not to say some crazy still won't open fire but with so many guns pointing back that crazy is not going to take that many and that crazy may just think twice and instead commit suicide some other way (jump in front of train, hanging, etc..)

Good questions. I don't think there's anything more to learn from him. BUT, the idea of having to pay for yet another terrorist to live (however little it may be) in prison or otherwise is just sickening.

Being a first responder, which I'm not, I don't think I could have just let him die. It would be a moral battle that I could not win. As long as all other victims were being cared for, I couldn't just stand by and watch him die as much as I would want to.

As long as everyone else was being cared for.

 

[ihateiraq]

yes there is a death penalty under military law. im not sure about the methods of execution though. i dont think theres been one in my lifetime.

 

[techres]

yes there is a death penalty under military law. im not sure about the methods of execution though. i dont think theres been one in my lifetime.

From the last parallel case - Hasan Akbar case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

On 21 April 2005 Akbar was found guilty of two counts of premeditated murder (of Army Capt. Christopher Seifert, 27, who was shot in the back, and Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone, 40, struck by shrapnel) and three counts of attempted premeditated murder.[9] He was sentenced to death on 28 April, the jury deliberating for around 7 hours.[10]
On 20 November 2006 Lieutenant General John Vines, commander of the 18th Airborne Corps, affirmed the death sentence against Akbar.[3] The case now goes to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals under an automatic appeal. If the appeal fails, the execution will take place by lethal injection.
Since the Vietnam War, Akbar is the first U.S. soldier to be charged with the murder of another soldier during wartime, and the third soldier since the Vietnam War to be sentenced to death for killing a fellow soldier, though William Kreutzer Jr.'s sentence was commuted to life. The last U.S. military execution was that of John A. Bennett in 1961.

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

SOURCE:Army: Shooting suspect taken off ventilator - Yahoo! News



This got me thinking of several things.
1) Say the suspect does recover. Since he was active duty he will be court marshaled right? If found guilty will it be life in military prison or does the military have the death sentence? If death sentence what type? Injection? Gas chamber? Hanging? Firing squad? Etc...

2) I understand that the current doctors right now who are looking at him (the suspect) are just doing their job. But why did the first responders save him? What is the point? Look at all the $$$ we are spending on bring him back only to a) have him spend the rest of his life in jail or to kill him?

Could they (1st responders medical people) not have perhaps saved someone else instead of him? Or is it that by him living we can learn more about why he did it and perhaps learn to protect ourselves from it occurring again?


No mater what we learn from him it will happen again since there is no way to pretend this type of crime from occurring 100%. Yes there are ways to lower the chance of it happening. AKA if everyone OC everywhere it would be a bit harder for this to occur. Not to say some crazy still won't open fire but with so many guns pointing back that crazy is not going to take that many and that crazy may just think twice and instead commit suicide some other way (jump in front of train, hanging, etc..)

Military courts-martial DO have the death penalty as punishment.

 

[sloughfoot]

The military can use death by hanging or firing squad.

Not to minimize the events at Fort Hood, but more military personnel died in the air to air collision off California a week ago and in Afganistan in the last two weeks.

It is a dangerous world we live in. Condition yellow for all of us is appropriate, IMO.

 

[ihateiraq]

The military can use death by hanging or firing squad.

Not to minimize the events at Fort Hood, but more military personnel died in the air to air collision off California a week ago and in Afganistan in the last two weeks.

It is a dangerous world we live in. Condition yellow for all of us is appropriate, IMO.

youre not supposed to have to face death at the mob site though. all deaths are tragedies, but these are harder to stomach than most.

 

[Bill of Rights]

SE: I saw it on Fox the other day... the night it happened, the murderer's cousin tried to spew a line of crap that the murderer was a "good American", however, the next day, I saw quoted many times the remainder of his family coming on and denouncing his actions, claiming among other things, "He was not raised that way." Granted, this could also be taken as "not our fault!" except that it was not his parents who said it.

For those who question why efforts were made to save him, a brief anecdote: In the ER I used to work at, the story was told of a few years earlier a person, the son of one of the housekeepers, coming in with a gun, threatening the staff, and basically completing "suicide by cop". Once the officer dropped the perp, the staff he had just been threatening swooped in, picked him up, and began working to save his life.

To someone who does not feel it, I cannot begin to explain the depth to which the drive (to not let Death win) goes. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do is, in response to a "do not resuscitate" order, allow someone's heart to stop and do nothing to restart it. The conflict is not something I could have imagined before, and is not one I ever want to face again.

The medical first responders, if they have that drive, and I would bet they do, were no more able to just let him go, as much as they hated what he'd done, than they would have been able to chew off their own arms without one HELL of a good reason (and no, "Coyote Ugly" does not count)

This is not about the Muslim community, the male gender, lawful gun owners, or the medical profession, any of them, as a whole. This is about this particular piece of slime (ab)using religion as a reason to kill those around him.

I say that this particular piece of slime needs to have his brain picked for any useful bit of information that can prevent a repeat of the crime that happened at Ft. Hood, then he needs to be put in front of a firing squad.

Fill those hollow points with bacon grease, boys, and send this SOB straight to hell where he belongs.

Bill

 

[ihateiraq]

SE: I saw it on Fox the other day... the night it happened, the murderer's cousin tried to spew a line of crap that the murderer was a "good American", however, the next day, I saw quoted many times the remainder of his family coming on and denouncing his actions, claiming among other things, "He was not raised that way." Granted, this could also be taken as "not our fault!" except that it was not his parents who said it.

For those who question why efforts were made to save him, a brief anecdote: In the ER I used to work at, the story was told of a few years earlier a person, the son of one of the housekeepers, coming in with a gun, threatening the staff, and basically completing "suicide by cop". Once the officer dropped the perp, the staff he had just been threatening swooped in, picked him up, and began working to save his life.

To someone who does not feel it, I cannot begin to explain the depth to which the drive (to not let Death win) goes. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do is, in response to a "do not resuscitate" order, allow someone's heart to stop and do nothing to restart it. The conflict is not something I could have imagined before, and is not one I ever want to face again.

The medical first responders, if they have that drive, and I would bet they do, were no more able to just let him go, as much as they hated what he'd done, than they would have been able to chew off their own arms without one HELL of a good reason (and no, "Coyote Ugly" does not count)

This is not about the Muslim community, the male gender, lawful gun owners, or the medical profession, any of them, as a whole. This is about this particular piece of slime (ab)using religion as a reason to kill those around him.

I say that this particular piece of slime needs to have his brain picked for any useful bit of information that can prevent a repeat of the crime that happened at Ft. Hood, then he needs to be put in front of a firing squad.

Fill those hollow points with bacon grease, boys, and send this SOB straight to hell where he belongs.

Bill

i read the first part of your post w/ a "pffft". however, i could not agree more with the bold portion.