The Great NRA 3 Rules vs. Cooper's 4 Rules Debate

[IndyDave1776]

Illusory superiority--the Dunning-Kruger effect.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is defined as “a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability to recognize their [own] ineptitude.”


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Dr. David Dustin and Dr. Justin Kruger won the Nobel prize for psychology with their research.

More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I take it that this is the scholarly version of my own favorite explanation that "they don't know enough to know that they don't know"?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I take it that this is the scholarly version of my own favorite explanation that "they don't know enough to know that they don't know"?

Pretty much. Along with the fact that as you gain more knowledge, you start to learn how much you don't know, and feel less confident.

It's one of the main driving forces of the Internet, combined with porn, funny cat videos, and selling your junk to strangers without having to let them traipse through your yard.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Pretty much. Along with the fact that as you gain more knowledge, you start to learn how much you don't know, and feel less confident.

It's one of the main driving forces of the Internet, combined with porn, funny cat videos, and selling your junk to strangers without having to let them traipse through your yard.

You just gave me an idea on how we could get rich: Sell funny cat porn to strangers over the internet!

 

[jamil]

You just gave me an idea on how we could get rich: Sell funny cat porn to strangers over the internet!

Is that any more profitable than tentacle porn?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Is that any more profitable than tentacle porn?

I have no idea. I would have a huge learning curve ahead of me to pull something like this off!

 

[Hoosier Carry]

Question in this debate?? It seems that the views for rule 1 are only being pertained by someone handling the firearm.

What about when the firearm is not under your control? Such as this post

I would not walk down that range if someone is standing at or handling the weapon.

Why would you not consider a firearm loaded when it's not in your control? Which is rule #1.

 

[cordex]

Why would you not consider a firearm loaded when it's not in your control? Which is rule #1.

Loaded does not mean autonomous death machine. An unhandled firearm is the least likely to discharge.

 

[Hoosier Carry]

Loaded does not mean autonomous death machine. An unhandled firearm is the least likely to discharge.

I am not talking about an unhandled firearm. If you can read the quote it talks about a firearm in the hands of another.

Thanks

 

[jamil]

I am not talking about an unhandled firearm. If you can read the quote it talks about a firearm in the hands of another.

Thanks

I'm generally neutral on this tooic but I will say, the condition of a firearm in someone else's hands doesn't really matter to me as much as how they're handling it. If I don't know the condition, and they handle it like it's unloaded, I'm certainly not going to assume it's not loaded.

 

[wtburnette]

How about rifle ranges or matches? You clear your gun so it's unloaded. Oops, I mean it's always loaded. Then you walk down range to check and change your target while a handfull of rifles are pointed in your direction. Safe? Not safe? Judgment.

I am not talking about an unhandled firearm. If you can read the quote it talks about a firearm in the hands of another.

Thanks

I don't see where he's saying that the firearms are being handled. At most ranges I've been to they are set down on the bench, with the muzzle downrange and unloaded when the range is cold. Anyone handling any firearms while on the line with the range cold will either get their sh*t jumped, asked to leave or both.

I "believe" he was talking about all of those "unloaded" firearms sitting on benches that are pointed right at you as you go downrange. At least that's how I read it. It doesn't make sense if someone is handling the firearms, as that should never happen when the range is cold and people are downrange.

 

[Hoosier Carry]

I don't see where he's saying that the firearms are being handled. At most ranges I've been to they are set down on the bench, with the muzzle downrange and unloaded when the range is cold. Anyone handling any firearms while on the line with the range cold will either get their sh*t jumped, asked to leave or both.

I "believe" he was talking about all of those "unloaded" firearms sitting on benches that are pointed right at you as you go downrange. At least that's how I read it. It doesn't make sense if someone is handling the firearms, as that should never happen when the range is cold and people are downrange.

It was in Spike Jones' post about someone at the line handling a firearm.

To simplify my question,
if someone else is handling a firearm, do you not assume that the firearm is loaded?

I always assume that it's loaded so I can place myself in a safe position if it is being mishandled.

That was the question about how others view rule 1.

 

[wtburnette]

It was in Spike Jones' post about someone at the line handling a firearm.

To simplify my question,
if someone else is handling a firearm, do you not assume that the firearm is loaded?

I always assume that it's loaded so I can place myself in a safe position if it is being mishandled.

That was the question about how others view rule 1.

Ah, my bad, wrong quote.

In that case I agree...

 

[Ballistix]

I didn't read the complete thread, so it might have been mentioned after page 5.

It isn't the rules that are responsible for the person's actions.

I'm willing to bet, if any of these people that are involved in tragic firearm incidents, are asked what either the three, or four rules are, they'll have no idea.
It's become common and popular to own a firearm, and it's relatively easy to obtain one (in IN) and when an uneducated (about firearms) person purchases a firearm, they don't get any training, or even learn the specifics on that particular firearm. They buy, load, and think that they will hit a target with the first shot, even with the fact that they have never used a firearm.
These people aren't conscious of the responsibility of owning a firearm. They don't understand the impact and damage a firearm encompasses. They see movies and that is their impression of reality.

Everyone wants to blame the person for not following the rules, but how can they follow them, when they don't know them?

 

[SSGSAD]

How about rifle ranges or matches? You clear your gun so it's unloaded. Oops, I mean it's always loaded. Then you walk down range to check and change your target while a handfull of rifles are pointed in your direction. Safe? Not safe? Judgment.

This is done EVERY day, at the range in the Military .....

Now we have several "coaches", I can't remember the "military Name" .....

but when we are "done shooting", we clear our weapons, and the chamber is checked,

and when "all is clear", we are allowed, to go down and check, and score targets .....

the "range personell", or coaches, come down with us, so no one is on the line .....

so if 30 people are shooting, you are downrange, with 30 M-16's pointing at you .....


Loaded, or unloaded, you are in front of the muzzle of a weapon .....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You just gave me an idea on how we could get rich: Sell funny cat porn to strangers over the internet!

Lulz, sad part is I bet someone beat you to it....but I'm not putting that in my Google history to find out.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm willing to bet, if any of these people that are involved in tragic firearm incidents, are asked what either the three, or four rules are, they'll have no idea.

Everyone single one of these people involved in tragic firearms incidents will tell the police what? Right, "I didn't know it was loaded."

Every. Single. One. Of. Them.

Oh, and the police won't ask you "Why?" because motive is irrelevant to the crime. They just care about the bullet you put in your roommate's head.

 

[bwframe]

We need another rule argument, I mean really...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/438398-fail-strong-one.html

 

[EPeter213]

We need another rule argument, I mean really...

How about a thoughtful conversation about ways to improve training without arguing about who's traditional set of rules may or may not be better?

Thank you, BBI, for sharing your collected experience. I always appreciate your perspective and input.

 

[GIJEW]

It seems to me that the primary cause of NDs is bad habits. If it takes several thousand reps for an action to begin to become habitual, there's no way anyone can create a habit in a class unless it's a week long/15,000 rnd course.

A new gun owner and graduate of a basic pistol class can probably tell you what the safety rules are, but if she/he has to THINK about them in order to do them, the rules won't be there to help them when they're distracted or under stress.
Then, if that student doesn't follow up with more classes and practice but takes the attitude of "I checked that box. I know that", it's no surprise if they go back to treating the trigger like it's part of the grip etc--if they ever stopped.

4 rules vs 3 rules? More heat than light.

Trigger discipline and muzzle discipline are essentially the same.

While the NRA class explicitly says know what's beyond your target (and what it's made of--like will your back stop, STOP the bullet or just make it richochet?), Cooper's putting it in bold print as a fundamental rule is better.

The NRA expressing safety rules as positive commands is better.

I think Cooper's #1 and NRA's #3 both speak to situational awareness and both deserve clarification. Presumably the instructor is going to talk about checking the firearm while saying not to load until ready to fire. Since safety rules need to be habits and "to load or not to load" is a decision, I'd amend the wording of NRA #3 to "check the firearm when you pick it and when you put it away."

 

[ViperJock]

This is done EVERY day, at the range in the Military .....

Now we have several "coaches", I can't remember the "military Name" .....

but when we are "done shooting", we clear our weapons, and the chamber is checked,

and when "all is clear", we are allowed, to go down and check, and score targets .....

the "range personel", or coaches, com down with us, so no one is on the line .....

so if 30 people are shooting, you are downrange, with 30 M-16's pointing at you .....


Loaded, or unloaded, you are in front of the muzzle of a weapon .....

exactly. But you consider yourself safe while directly violating two rules. Because at some point real life requires you to use judgment.

In Highpower matches the next heat is often at the line though not handling a weapon. Theoretically.

Where the NDs resulting in injury occur are people with very bad judgment. Those people are still at the level in which they should not actually be handling a firearm without direct supervision.