The 9mm sucks. Man shot 21 times still alive.

[STRIKER]

This.

They are a bad shot.

Horrible shot, it's not the arrow it's the shooter

 

[kingnereli]

Why is it such a difficult concept to understand that bigger holes are better than smaller holes? Advocating capacity is one thing but to sacrifice effectiveness for it is just silly.

 

[teddy12b]

Why is it such a difficult concept to understand that bigger holes are better than smaller holes? Advocating capacity is one thing but to sacrifice effectiveness for it is just silly.

I don't think anyone would argue against that especially with the high cap 45's out there now. I think that generally what everyone's trying to say is that nobody gets shot 21 times and lives because the bullets were in the right place. Seems to be a repeating theme about bullet placement, but I don't think anyone would say a bigger hole is a bad thing, just that a bigger hole that misses vitals, is still just a miss.

 

[STRIKER]

Why is it such a difficult concept to understand that bigger holes are better than smaller holes? Advocating capacity is one thing but to sacrifice effectiveness for it is just silly.

1) Capacity, as you stated
2) Cost, more practice
3) Speed

It could be 9mm as this story shows,

.40
Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident - Training - LawOfficer.com

Or .45
Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice - Training - LawOfficer.com

It's all about shot placement

 

[Jack Ryan]

How many people here carry a 22 as their self defense weapon?

I expect to see a lot of hands go up here after all this blathering about it's the placement not the calibur baloney.

 

[indyk]

hmm?

ball ammo?
Placement?

Im willing to bet if CorBon or Hornady rounds were used that individual would not be alive to set a "record"

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

How many people here carry a 22 as their self defense weapon?

I expect to see a lot of hands go up here after all this blathering about it's the placement not the calibur baloney.

I thought this discussion was about how a 9mm sucks? How did you get a .22 out of that?

 

[teddy12b]

How many people here carry a 22 as their self defense weapon?

I expect to see a lot of hands go up here after all this blathering about it's the placement not the calibur baloney.

Put me on the list of people who don't want to be shot by a 22LR in the head, heart, or lungs. I don't think I'd live through it.

 

[kingnereli]

I don't think anyone would argue against that especially with the high cap 45's out there now. I think that generally what everyone's trying to say is that nobody gets shot 21 times and lives because the bullets were in the right place. Seems to be a repeating theme about bullet placement, but I don't think anyone would say a bigger hole is a bad thing, just that a bigger hole that misses vitals, is still just a miss.

1) Capacity, as you stated
2) Cost, more practice
3) Speed

It could be 9mm as this story shows,

.40
Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident - Training - LawOfficer.com

Or .45
Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice - Training - LawOfficer.com

It's all about shot placement

Is there some assumption that people who recognize that some calibers are more effective than others don't see the importance of shot placement? Of course shot placement is the most important factor. Yet all things being equal a bigger bullet will do better job.

All the posturing about shot placement in caliber discussions is almost humorous. We have to realize that the chances are slim that all our shots will be perfect during what could be the most stressful event in our lives. We train and practice to be prepared as best we can. Though the one thing we can absolutely count on is that wherever the hit is a bigger bullet will damage more tissue and let out more blood. I'd rather not put myself at a disadvantage from the onset by choosing a small caliber for self defense.

 

[teddy12b]

Is there some assumption that people who recognize that some calibers are more effective than others don't see the importance of shot placement? No not the way I'm reading it. Of course shot placement is the most important factor. Yet all things being equal a bigger bullet will do better job. That's the way I see it too.

All the posturing about shot placement in caliber discussions is almost humorous. We have to realize that the chances are slim that all our shots will be perfect during what could be the most stressful event in our lives. Most of what I see on TV by the professional trainers is talking about "combat accurate" hits. They're not talking bullseye competitions, or benchrest. They're talking about hitting the vitals while your heart is pumping and you're moving or in fear for your life. Nobody's expecting a 5 shot group with all holes touching, they're saying none of the 21 hits out of over 50 rounds fired were in a vital area. We train and practice to be prepared as best we can. Though the one thing we can absolutely count on is that wherever the hit is a bigger bullet will damage more tissue and let out more blood. I'd rather not put myself at a disadvantage from the onset by choosing a small caliber for self defense. I don't blame you one bit. If I wasn't concerned about my wife being able to handle recoil and make accurate hits I'd still have my xd 45. However things are what they are I backed it down to a 9mm.

I think we're all getting a little too carried away with another one of those arguements that never end. Each caliber will have it's own benefits and negatives. In my case I'd love to have a bigger gun, but my wife couldn't handle it. So, I work to the advantage of what I have and my beretta 9mm has 20rd mags full of 124gr JHP's. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just what works for me. The hits still have to be accurate hits though.

I wonder if there's another way we can beat this dead horse.

 

[XtremeVel]

We have to realize that the chances are slim that all our shots will be perfect during what could be the most stressful event in our lives. We train and practice to be prepared as best we can. Though the one thing we can absolutely count on is that wherever the hit is a bigger bullet will damage more tissue and let out more blood. I'd rather not put myself at a disadvantage from the onset by choosing a small caliber for self defense.

I'd even go one step further and say I would gladly sacrifice SOME capacity and SOME accuracy for that " bigger hole". Heck, just look at how many jump thru the hoops and spend good money everytime the " latest & greatest" sd round hits the market...

One situation where I would say the bigger hole theory does have a fault is.... If I were to take my wifes kahr CW9 away from her and hand her a .40 or .45, this is what would happen... She would no longer accompany me to the range... she would no longer have any interests of carrying it... She would loose any confidence in her own ability as a shooter... And if the event she would surpirse me and give it a fair chance, she would shoot it eyes closed, teeth clentched, ect... This isn't to mention she would make my life fricking miserable...

 

[beararms1776]

I guess his 9th time to jail will be his final. Why was he out of jail anyway.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I thought this discussion was about how a 9mm sucks? How did you get a .22 out of that?

Good argument for high capacity pistols imo.

A gunman attacked the Holocaust museum in Washington DC earlier this year and killed a guard using a .22 rifle.

id rather be shot 21 times with a 45 by a guy who cant shoot straight than one time with a 9mm by a guy who knows how to hit where he is aiming

If smaller bullets make you shoot better then 22 should make you the best you can be.

yep there was a lot of very poor shooting going on there.

Apparently done with a 9mm and still poor.

This proves, that a well placed shot, from any caliber, is better, than a misplaced shot.....

I'll bet a guy shot in the head with a 22, is just as dead as the guy who got shot with a 45.

It's not the caliber, it's the placement.

I'm reading the arguement from one particular view point as being something in smaller bullets with less recoil means you will be a better shooter with it because of a. less recoil, b. less expense so more practice, c. it doesn't really matter the size and velocity of the bullet but it is all about the placement of the bullet.

So how I conclude IF THAT ARGUEMENT WERE TRUE a 22 lr would exceed all other options as it is the cheapest to shoot, has low recoil, and is available in all sizes of weapons from the most minute and easily concealed to a 7 inch barrel in a revolver and larger. I can not see a single arguement possible indicating a 9mm would make a better self defense round than a 45acp that would not also have to be equally true about a 22lr compared to a 9mm.

There fore if their position is correct a 9mm better than a 45 acp then it must also be true 22lr is better than 9mm and there for also better than a 45 acp.

I'm not the first person to bring the 22lr in to the discussion, I'm merely making an observation. I think every one ELSE should carry a 22 if they can't aford a BB gun.

BTW, I believe I am the first to introduce BB guns in to the thread.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Maybe we can bring a .17 HMR into the discussion too. There are a couple pistols out there

 

[kingnereli]

I think we're all getting a little too carried away with another one of those arguements that never end. Each caliber will have it's own benefits and negatives. In my case I'd love to have a bigger gun, but my wife couldn't handle it. So, I work to the advantage of what I have and my beretta 9mm has 20rd mags full of 124gr JHP's. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just what works for me. The hits still have to be accurate hits though.

I wonder if there's another way we can beat this dead horse.

I'd even go one step further and say I would gladly sacrifice SOME capacity and SOME accuracy for that " bigger hole". Heck, just look at how many jump thru the hoops and spend good money everytime the " latest & greatest" sd round hits the market...

One situation where I would say the bigger hole theory does have a fault is.... If I were to take my wifes kahr CW9 away from her and hand her a .40 or .45, this is what would happen... She would no longer accompany me to the range... she would no longer have any interests of carrying it... She would loose any confidence in her own ability as a shooter... And if the event she would surpirse me and give it a fair chance, she would shoot it eyes closed, teeth clentched, ect... This isn't to mention she would make my life fricking miserable...

You both make fine points about recoil control and shootability. My mantra is to choose the heaviest load of the widest bullet I can control. That approach will land some people on 9mm. My wife chose a 9mm as well.

 

[teddy12b]

There fore if their position is correct a 9mm better than a 45 acp then it must also be true 22lr is better than 9mm and there for also better than a 45 acp. I think there's a general understanding about the diminishing return of smaller round with higher capacity less recoil, and less costly to practice versus a larger round with less capacity, more recoil and more cost to practice. There's no right or wrong, and it's a decision we all must make for ourselves.

BTW, I believe I am the first to introduce BB guns in to the thread. I can be a witness that a BB gun isn't a man stopper. My older brother and I had a red ryder growing up and you've already heard a different version of this same story when the older brother tells his younger brother to run and then starts shooting from the hip like John Wayne. The BB's bounced off.

Personally I shoot the best with my 22lr handgun, and worst with my 44mag. I wouldn't want either because they are at the far ends of the spectrum. I had to go with the most powerful handgun that the weakest link (wife) could handle. Not trying to insult her, but she's not going to hit squat with a 45 as much as I wish she could.

 

[XtremeVel]

I had to go with the most powerful handgun that the weakest link (wife) could handle. Not trying to insult her, but she's not going to hit squat with a 45 as much as I wish she could.

I too, often times carry what I'm not 100% happy with. I sleep with a XD-45 tactical under my pillow. What I wouldn't give to have the ability to carry that thing, but there is absolulety no way I could lug that around.

I try to carry a G22 with a .357 barrel in it. The trouble I find with this though is even that size is even tough for me to carry. I would find often times I would just think "screw it" and not carry anything.

Recently, I added a G19 for the times I don't want to lug the G22 around. Right now, I would say what I ultimately decide to carry will probably be a G32. I haven't totally given up on the idea on finding the right sized .45 though. Thats the reason I bought the g19.... It, along with the G22, will afford me some time to decide what my edc will ultimately be. Also, in the meantime, the wife and son are both having a blast with the G19 at the range. Actually, so much that the wife just ordered one of her own to go with her kahr.

 

[Glock19Dude]

After reading he had 8 prior arrests why do they bother putting him in a hospital?? IMO...let the piece of doodoo die on the street.

 

[kingnereli]

II sleep with a XD-45 tactical under my pillow...

That's my main EDC

I like big and heavy but I can see how it could put off some.

 

[teddy12b]

I too, often times carry what I'm not 100% happy with. I sleep with a XD-45 tactical under my pillow. What I wouldn't give to have the ability to carry that thing, but there is absolulety no way I could lug that around.

Our 9mm is just a beside buddy. It never gets carried for protection unless I get car jacked on the way to or from the range. I never carry a gun on me, but I might keep one in the car over the weekend but that's mostly because we'll be camping around snakes and I'll have the gun half full of snake shot.

At some point I want to buy a small frame Glock 20 in 10mm, but I know my wife will not be able to handle it. I'm starting to get interested in that package, just wish the ammo was more popular.