Submit documentation from mental health pro or treatment ctr...

[UpInArms]

I picked up an application for handgun license and 3/4 or the way down, I have to answer "yes" to "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care or and emotional or mental illness" because GAD is considered a mental illness. There is no distinction on the level a person has regarding GAD, so a mild case is categorized the same as a severe case. I went on my own accord, to see if the stress of 58 hrs a week working AND full time enrollment in a Big Ten school was normal or if I was "abnormal".

Now that I look back on it, I might have just been "crazy" for taking on that kind of load. Before going on my own, I had to go through my employer's assistance program where I was given a LCSW who had me meditate and practice breathing exercises. Since that was an epic fail, I went to a psychiatrist since I am not a fan of going to the doc and don't have a primary care physician.

Using some searches on this site, I have seen things regarding the "intent" of the law but this appears to be from an old application for handgun license, where they asked if you had been judged mentally incompetent or had been institutionalized.

I can go to my psychiatrist and ask for a letter; but if his letter does not address their questions and concerns (which I can not find), his letter will do no good. Guessing at their concerns will do me no good either so I gave that up.

If anyone, since turning in their newer LTCH application has been through this and was in a similar circumstance, I would appreciate what exactly it was that was written. I realize it is ultimately up to my psychiatrist to write or not write.

Thanks!

 

[tenring]

NG, there is a huge difference in voluntary and involuntary treatment. If emotional stress was a mental illness, half the married couple in this country would be in therapy. And what ever possessed you to bite off more than you could chew?

 

[rambone]

GAD = Generalized Anxiety Disorder

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Upinarms,

No lawyer here but my understanding is what Tenring wrote. That section refers to INVOLUNTARY treatment, not voluntary.

 

[random_eyes]

Seems like a risky interpretation to me. The question asks "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care or an emotional or mental illness?" Whether or not voluntary is not mentioned.

 

[random_eyes]

From http://www.in.gov/isp/files/firearms_FAQ_02_08.pdf

What is the definition of a “proper person” to be licensed?

. . .

(5) does not have a record of being an alcohol or drug abuser as defined in this chapter;
(6) does not have documented evidence which would give rise to a reasonable belief that the person has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct;
(7) does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application;

 

[groovatron]

Self served psychological treatment is no one's business but your own. Psychiatrists do not submit records to the government for these purposes. It is an absolute violation of doctor/patient confidentiality. The question on the application is so broad and open to interpretation, that you can take it so many ways. You must first define the term "mental illness." There are so many opinions on the difference between mental illness, mental disorders, etc. The fact is, unless you have been commited to a mental institution or found mentally incompetent by a court, they will never find out. Treatment for mild ADHD, GAD, Depression, etc., will not be discovered by ISP. You are better off just checking no, unless you come prepared with a letter from your doctor and submit it with your application.

Disclaimer: IANAL......and I am not necessarily recommending that anyone lies on a LTCH application.......what you do is your own choice....

 

[UpInArms]

If emotional stress was a mental illness, half the married couple in this country would be in therapy. And what ever possessed you to bite off more than you could chew?

Quite true to the first point...and the second part is a valid question. I should have waited before going to college--but I went right after HS, then dropped out. After moving back into the area, I enrolled again. Long story short, I got a job, held it long enough for my employer to start reimbursing me to finish school, and right at that time, the economy boomed. OT was mandatory for me 3 out of 4 weekends a month since I was the newest guy there. I had already failed miserably before in school so I gave it my all this time. The trade-off for 4 hours of sleep a night was finally 8 As and a C in my last 9 classes. Oh, and the anxiety

No lawyer here but my understanding is what Tenring wrote. That section refers to INVOLUNTARY treatment, not voluntary.

From http://www.in.gov/isp/files/firearms_FAQ_02_08.pdf

What is the definition of a “proper person” to be licensed?

. . .

(5) does not have a record of being an alcohol or drug abuser as defined in this chapter;
(6) does not have documented evidence which would give rise to a reasonable belief that the person has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct;
(7) does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application;

To both the above quotes...as I have been searching these archives, it appears that the question on the application changed at some point in time, and I am wondering if it might have been the same time IN went with a lifetime license. With the above, I would be able to check the box that yes (satisfying #7), I was treated for psychiatric health care, and also still pass #s 5 and 6 above.

Self served psychological treatment is no one's business but your own. Psychiatrists do not submit records to the government for these purposes. It is an absolute violation of doctor/patient confidentiality. The question on the application is so broad and open to interpretation, that you can take it so many ways. You must first define the term "mental illness." There are so many opinions on the difference between mental illness, mental disorders, etc. The fact is, unless you have been commited to a mental institution or found mentally incompetent by a court, they will never find out. Treatment for mild ADHD, GAD, Depression, etc., will not be discovered by ISP. You are better off just checking no, unless you come prepared with a letter from your doctor and submit it with your application.

Disclaimer: IANAL......and I am not necessarily recommending that anyone lies on a LTCH application.......what you do is your own choice....

I am a big supporter of confidentiality...especially HIPAA. But when you look into HIPAA, taken from For Consumers, you come to a point that says:

"Who Is Not Required to Follow These Laws...
Examples of organizations that do not have to follow the Privacy and Security Rules include:

many law enforcement agencies,
many municipal offices."

The application is going out of its way here to require answers that do not pertain to Indiana Code...which is where interpretation by a human will end up having to take place. I guess if you put the truth out there, you "hope" the person reviewing the application is having a good day.

My psychiatrist was more expensive than a lawyer (no joke) so I won't be getting a letter any time soon. I'm going to do a bit more research first and will keep this thread updated so that the next person knows what they will end up having to go through.

 

[EdC]

I don't know what they meant when they drafted the application, but I know what they wrote, and they didn't ask about "involuntary" treatment only. The question is plain enough. Get the letter. I would bet that your doc has writtent them before for other patients. The letter will say that he's treated you since such and such date for whatever, and if he can say that it's his opinion that you are responsible, capable of good judgment, emotionally stable, have no propensity for violence, and will be able to use a handgun appropriately for defense of self and others, that's all they are looking for. In other words, like random_eyes posted, are you a "proper person?" Then it's "shall issue."

If you do check yes, then you MUST submit the letter, of course.

Sure, the ISP will never find out during the application process. But, here's something to think about. Remember why you're getting the license in the first place. It's a real possibilty you might shoot someone in self defense. If you ever have to shoot someone, and from the prosecutor's point of view it's a "close call" and there are witnesses who know you, and they're your well meaning friends who know you received treatment, and they happen to talk about it to investigators, trying to "help", and the police check out your application . . . You see where this is going.

You will probably never have to worry about it again, if you check "no", but if you're ever involved in a shooting, I'll bet you'll lose sleep about it. Save yourself the stress. Get the letter. That's my 2 cents.

 

[Astrocreep]

As far as I'm concerned, it's none of their G.D. business if I've ever been in for psychological treatment for anything.

Your psychologist/psychiatrist/counselor CANNOT by law disclose any information about your discussions with them or the course of your treatment, no matter who is asking.
They can, however (and must) report you to the proper authorities if they believe you are a threat to yourself or others.
(example: you convince them you are going to kill someone, then they have a duty to report it)

If they check your criminal record and there's something there, fine.
Otherwise, they can stay out of our medical records.

The form 4473 asks:
"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or have you been committed to a mental institution?"
That information is part of the public record with respect to your criminal history.

If they want to know more than that, I'll tell them where they can go and what they can do to themselves when they get there.

Don't give them anything.
If you haven't already submitted the application, don't mention anything that they can't already find in the public record.
If you have submitted it with that box checked 'yes' and are looking into getting a letter from your care provider, consult a lawyer before doing anything further.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

If you look at the 4473 it reads "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority...

[snip]

... or committed to a mental institution..."

So, Ed, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Here's the link to the pdf: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

 

[LPMan59]

i dunno. i was treated for depression back when i was in college. i asked the local PD about this question and they told me that while the question was intended for people who had been committed, the wording applied to any mental/emotional treatment in any form.

here's the way i look at it: say you check "no" based on your interpretation of the question (which i personally think is a valid one) and the ISP issues you the LTCH. now everything is great and wonderful until the day you have to use your firearm in self-defense. if you think a prosecutor or a civil attorney suing your *** for wrongful death isn't going to find out, you're dreaming. how's it going to look when it comes out that you were in fact treated for mental illness, by a psychiatrist no less, and that you still checked "no" on the application?

do what i did. call the MD before out the application. i hadnt seen my (former) doc in five years. i called him up and explained the situation...he faxed his letter to my local PD the next day. LTCH application approved

 

[Captain Bligh]

...Get the letter. I would bet that your doc has writtent them before for other patients

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I am a licensed mental health professional who has been in practice for decades. In my long career, I have been asked for a gun-related (but not LTCH) letter only one time. Although I am very gun friendly, have a LTCH, and a sizable gun collection, I refused to sign it.

Here's the deal from my perspective. First, and foremost, the first thing any of us are going to be thinking about is our own liability. We are going to be a lot more concerned about our getting sued if future events prove we decide wrong than we are about whether or not you are going to get your LTCH. Secondly, IMHO, you are more likely to find mental health professionals who are anti-gun than you are to find people like me. I have no data to back that statement up, but it's my observation based upon talk in case staffings and colleagues I know.

In my career, I have never had a direct request from the State about a person's fitness related to guns. In my one experience, the burden was placed upon the client to obtain and return to the State such proof. When presented with such a request, I would have to be VERY convinced that my client posed no harm before I would sign such a letter. If I have the slightest shadow of a doubt, my own liability concerns are going to prevail, and I'm not signing. My desire to stay in business and stay financially solvent will supercede my interest in helping a client get a LTCH or (in my case of one) to help a client get guns back after confiscation.

At any rate, we don't do it much and, therefore, have limited body of experience that says to us, "Hey, I've done this before, and it usually works out okay."

There you have one mental health professional's perspective.

 

[EdC]

So, Ed, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Here's the link to the pdf: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Blue Tile Spook, yes, the question on that form asks about involuntary committment, adjudication, etc. However, the 4473 is for purchase of a firearm, handgun/long gun. The language is very different from the Indiana application for LTCH.

I hate the question, and wonder who drafted it. It's sloppy. Part of it doesn't even make sense: "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care . . ." Yep, that's what it really says. What the heck does that mean?

Good input, Captain Bligh. Different from my experience. For all I really know for sure, I might lose my bet on that one.

UpinArms, the decision is yours. You've gotten a lot of different perspectives here. One thing I believe is really clear, and I know some disagree, is that the question does not relate to involuntary treatment only. I want to emphasize again, it's not just about getting your LTCH, it's whether or not, down the road, after you've had to shoot someone, you find yourself wishing like crazy you at lease tried to get the GD letter. As I understand it, you haven't submitted the application yet. See what your doc says, first. Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[groovatron]

i dunno. i was treated for depression back when i was in college. i asked the local PD about this question and they told me that while the question was intended for people who had been committed, the wording applied to any mental/emotional treatment in any form.

here's the way i look at it: say you check "no" based on your interpretation of the question (which i personally think is a valid one) and the ISP issues you the LTCH. now everything is great and wonderful until the day you have to use your firearm in self-defense. if you think a prosecutor or a civil attorney suing your *** for wrongful death isn't going to find out, you're dreaming. how's it going to look when it comes out that you were in fact treated for mental illness, by a psychiatrist no less, and that you still checked "no" on the application?

do what i did. call the MD before out the application. i hadnt seen my (former) doc in five years. i called him up and explained the situation...he faxed his letter to my local PD the next day. LTCH application approved

very good point.....i never really thought about that