State sales tax on a service ?

[Ingomike]

Finance guy is paid by the dealership to do the docs, that's his JOB. Why should I pay him again? It's like being forced to tip an annoying bartender. If they don't like that I will find another dealership.

The salesman is there to get the customer to offer to buy and take offer to sales manager.

Generally has NO AUTHORITY to negotiate anything is simply a go between the buyer and the seller per the rules the dealership lays out.


The sales manager is there to negotiate the deal on the sellers/dealerships behalf.


Would you let most salesmen negotiate for you if you owned a dealership? That is why they have to get finance guy approval.


The finance guy is there to facilitate the legal closing of the deal.

If you think silly extra charges are a bit** wait until a bunch of customers have to come back because their paperwork is not acceptable to the BMV or the buyers bank.

Everyone has a role that the business believes is necessary to sell cars. Just focus on that bottom line and not on changing the business rules. It will go a lot smoother…

 

[HoughMade]

EDIT: and the actual answer why? Its not taxable as far as I know. But they may be greedy and collecting the tax on it and then pocketing it since the state would not expect those tax dollars.

That would not just be greedy, it is illegal.

 

[phylodog]

Why don't I pay a doc fee when I eat at a restaurant or buy something from Kroger? Why does this need to exist as a separate expense? Why can it not be rolled into the normal operating business expenses? Pretty sure those businesses have paperwork that has to be filled out as well.

I'd love to hear a legitimate reason for it but I highly doubt there is one. That leaves only one logical conclusion and that is because it's ******** and just another way to squeak out a few more bucks from the customer. There's a reason car dealerships and sales people have the reputation they do, they've earned it.

 

[WebSnyper]

Why don't I pay a doc fee when I eat at a restaurant or buy something from Kroger? Why does this need to exist as a separate expense? Why can it not be rolled into the normal operating business expenses? Pretty sure those businesses have paperwork that has to be filled out as well.

I'd love to hear a legitimate reason for it but I highly doubt there is one. That leaves only one logical conclusion and that is because it's ******** and just another way to squeak out a few more bucks from the customer. There's a reason car dealerships and sales people have the reputation they do, they've earned it.

Especially if it's literally the same charge for every car that goes through... Just build it into the out the door pricing. It's just a way for them to show one price but end up charging another price.

 

[dmarsh8]

Even a few months ago, they would have happily showed you the door. I don't know if the tides have shifted yet?

Maybe, big deal. I'm in the business but even when I wasn't, there's always another vehicle out there to buy unless you're impatient. I've walked out plenty of times. Don't have to deal with it now but as firecadet613 said, get the OTD price settled first, and make sure they stick to it.

It's no different than bidding on a car.
Example: New car store is selling a trade-in at auction and they want $300 more on the block, but the buyer says no. It runs again the next week and most of the time it brings less than the first run. Greed is the loser.
Sure, you can give in if you want to but you can also walk away. Personal choice.
If $300 matters that much to the franchise store then the manager or salesman screwed up the trade-in portion of the deal to begin with.
People like to try the argument of "it's only 20 bucks or whatever the number is and I say, "yeah, exactly is 20 bucks worth losing the sale?
In reality, it's because they tried to add it in, not because it's more money.
It's the principle of places not being transparent on the retail side that's annoying.

I've bought 1 new vehicle in my life at 19 and it was also the last. They tried the same crap. About $350 I think for supposed Doc fees. I said take it off or I'm leaving. It was not close to home either by any means.

Not all dealerships are A-holes but plenty of them are(especially new-car stores).
Sometimes it's just the specific salesman or manager, some places it's nearly all of them. I could name one large franchise in Cincy that would qualify for the A-hole category and another in the same city that wouldn't.

 

[Ingomike]

Why don't I pay a doc fee when I eat at a restaurant or buy something from Kroger? Why does this need to exist as a separate expense? Why can it not be rolled into the normal operating business expenses? Pretty sure those businesses have paperwork that has to be filled out as well.

I'd love to hear a legitimate reason for it but I highly doubt there is one. That leaves only one logical conclusion and that is because it's ******** and just another way to squeak out a few more bucks from the customer. There's a reason car dealerships and sales people have the reputation they do, they've earned it.

How about it is their business and they have freedom to charge what they want. We have the freedom to accept or decline as we want.

 

[Ingomike]

Maybe, big deal. I'm in the business but even when I wasn't, there's always another vehicle out there to buy unless you're impatient. I've walked out plenty of times. Don't have to deal with it now but as firecadet613 said, get the OTD price settled first, and make sure they stick to it.

It's no different than bidding on a car.
Example: New car store is selling a trade-in at auction and they want $300 more on the block, but the buyer says no. It runs again the next week and most of the time it brings less than the first run. Greed is the loser.
Sure, you can give in if you want to but you can also walk away. Personal choice.
If $300 matters that much to the franchise store then the manager or salesman screwed up the trade-in portion of the deal to begin with.
People like to try the argument of "it's only 20 bucks or whatever the number is and I say, "yeah, exactly is 20 bucks worth losing the sale?
In reality, it's because they tried to add it in, not because it's more money.
It's the principle of places not being transparent on the retail side that's annoying.

I've bought 1 new vehicle in my life at 19 and it was also the last. They tried the same crap. About $350 I think for supposed Doc fees. I said take it off or I'm leaving. It was not close to home either by any means.

Not all dealerships are A-holes but plenty of them are(especially new-car stores).
Sometimes it's just the specific salesman or manager, some places it's nearly all of them. I could name one large franchise in Cincy that would qualify for the A-hole category and another in the same city that wouldn't.

If one is negotiating the bottom line none of that matters. As I posted earlier only negotiate the bottom line…

 

[phylodog]

How about it is their business and they have freedom to charge what they want. We have the freedom to accept or decline as we want.

So sorry, didn't mean to question the corruption or call it out into the light like that in front of everyone.

 

[phylodog]

Especially if it's literally the same charge for every car that goes through... Just build it into the out the door pricing. It's just a way for them to show one price but end up charging another price.

Ssshhhh, the smart people think we're too stupid to "get it"

 

[firecadet613]

Ssshhhh, the smart people think we're too stupid to "get it"

Every dealer I've purchased from has a doc fee. Build it into your offer.

 

[phylodog]

Every dealer I've purchased from has a doc fee. Build it into your offer.

We've established that you and I don't think alike on these issues. I'm going to continue calling out lies, corruption and evil for as long as I'm drawing breath.

 

[firecadet613]

We've established that you and I don't think alike on these issues. I'm going to continue calling out lies, corruption and evil for as long as I'm drawing breath.

You're right. I negotiate via email or text, get my deal agreed upon before I set foot in a dealer. My time is valuable and when I order a new truck, I send out my order sheet to multiple dealers. The best price wins and gets my business - I pick it up in 45-60 days after it's been built and delivered.

Doc fees are standard at car dealerships, like most things in life, figure out how to deal with it. Or just ***** and moan.

We've established you prefer the latter... I'll build the standard fee into my offer and enjoy my new truck...

 

[firecadet613]

We've established that you and I don't think alike on these issues. I'm going to continue calling out lies, corruption and evil for as long as I'm drawing breath.

Wait a minute. How the hell is a standard, published doc fee lies, corruption, or evil?!?!

I do not follow...

Last 3 doc fees I've paid were $149, $324 (IL dealer), and $199. A drop in the bucket on a $50k+ deal, but build it into you pricing. You don't have to like it (I don't) but I can understand it and work around it...

 

[WebSnyper]

Wait a minute. How the hell is a standard, published doc fee lies, corruption, or evil?!?!

I do not follow...

Last 3 doc fees I've paid were $149, $324 (IL dealer), and $199. A drop in the bucket on a $50k+ deal, but build it into you pricing. You don't have to like it (I don't) but I can understand it and work around it...

Because often it is slammed on top of any negotiated price after the fact. I agree that I don't care the allocation of the $ on the backend (not my circus), and I consider my out the door offer to be just that, but many less experienced car buyers end up not questioning it because of various lines used by salesmen about nothing they can do, etc.

The salesmen play the game of chicken that the buyer will be completely invested in the deal by that time and just pay it on top of the "agreed upon price", because buyers don't do this as often as they do.


Like you I do my best to work out everything before I step foot in a dealer (and did that again on the last one I worked which was my daughter's first new car that she purchased), and have walked from dealers who don't do that so they can employ their tactics.

The out the door is the out the door, but it's when the fees are used in a less than honest fashion is when it becomes a problem, and you can't deny that is done quite often.

 

[Ingomike]

So sorry, didn't mean to question the corruption or call it out into the light like that in front of everyone.

There you go again, taking others freedoms. You are making a habit of this. Anything you don’t like or understand is corruption. Why can’t you let others have the same freedoms you want?

 

[Ingomike]

Because often it is slammed on top of any negotiated price after the fact. I agree that I don't care the allocation of the $ on the backend (not my circus), and I consider my out the door offer to be just that, but many less experienced car buyers end up not questioning it because of various lines used by salesmen about nothing they can do, etc.

The salesmen play the game of chicken that the buyer will be completely invested in the deal by that time and just pay it on top of the "agreed upon price", because buyers don't do this as often as they do.


Like you I do my best to work out everything before I step foot in a dealer (and did that again on the last one I worked which was my daughter's first new car that she purchased), and have walked from dealers who don't do that so they can employ their tactics.

The out the door is the out the door, but it's when the fees are used in a less than honest fashion is when it becomes a problem, and you can't deny that is done quite often.

I have NEVER not asked what fees I will have in a transaction. That a seller or service provider have fees is quite common there are also fees to consider for mortgages, real estate, even renting a house will have fees associated with them as do most big ticket items. Even small jobs providers add in fuel surcharge fees, trip charges, etc. when gas prices spike. Yes some sellers are more up front but fees are a part of most of what we do in life and are not lies and corruption.

 

[WebSnyper]

I have NEVER not asked what fees I will have in a transaction. That a seller or service provider have fees is quite common there are also fees to consider for mortgages, real estate, even renting a house will have fees associated with them as do most big ticket items. Even small jobs providers add in fuel surcharge fees, trip charges, etc. when gas prices spike. Yes some sellers are more up front but fees are a part of most of what we do in life and are not lies and corruption.

I agree, about being informed and asking. That said when there is an agreed upon out the door price,anything added to out the door at that point made the OTD price agreement a lie.

 

[firecadet613]

Because often it is slammed on top of any negotiated price after the fact. I agree that I don't care the allocation of the $ on the backend (not my circus), and I consider my out the door offer to be just that, but many less experienced car buyers end up not questioning it because of various lines used by salesmen about nothing they can do, etc.

The salesmen play the game of chicken that the buyer will be completely invested in the deal by that time and just pay it on top of the "agreed upon price", because buyers don't do this as often as they do.


Like you I do my best to work out everything before I step foot in a dealer (and did that again on the last one I worked which was my daughter's first new car that she purchased), and have walked from dealers who don't do that so they can employ their tactics.

The out the door is the out the door, but it's when the fees are used in a less than honest fashion is when it becomes a problem, and you can't deny that is done quite often.

Agreed, however when I'm negotiating a OTD price (typically after I have the trucks price locked in), I'll get the purchase order sent to me, so you can see all charges, fees, etc down to the penny. If there's something unexpected we discuss it, before I head to the dealer.

This works for both new and used, although it's much easier when you're talking a new, ordered vehicle and it's an exact comparison.

I have NEVER not asked what fees I will have in a transaction. That a seller or service provider have fees is quite common there are also fees to consider for mortgages, real estate, even renting a house will have fees associated with them as do most big ticket items. Even small jobs providers add in fuel surcharge fees, trip charges, etc. when gas prices spike. Yes some sellers are more up front but fees are a part of most of what we do in life and are not lies and corruption.

Blame that on the American consumer and their "monthly payment" mindset.

Whether it's cars, homes, phones, you name it, the majority of consumers just want the monthly payment amount. Heck, someone upthread posted they asked for that during negotiations.

Me, I want the total price. Not payment, but total price.

 

[snapping turtle]

Especially if it's literally the same charge for every car that goes through... Just build it into the out the door pricing. It's just a way for them to show one price but end up charging another price.

Bait and switch. Walk if you want buy if you want.

Never let them know you like the car /truck. Then the hook is set. Never let them know you have the financial aspect already handled as often the loan can be better from them many times it is not.

I have only purchased one car new. Dad was/is a class a buyer from his GM employment but that is of course not what it once was.

All the others were I think pretty good deals but you have to be able to just walk away. Salesman “what does it take to make this happen”
Me : zero dollars more than X amount.

Then again my personal cars (not the wife’s) average many years old. Thus why I have a few.

 

[phylodog]

There you go again, taking others freedoms. You are making a habit of this. Anything you don’t like or understand is corruption. Why can’t you let others have the same freedoms you want?

I'm not engaging with you unless you answer the question I posted. If you can provide an answer I'll reply to you, if not we're done.