SIG going after Springfield over the Hellcat Magazine patent infringement

[sharpetop]

It's not obvious Sig did something different. Kel Tec came out with the P11 in 1995. It is smaller and lighter than the P365 and holds 10-round, flush fit mags. Also, S&W 59 mags fit the P11.

I always wondered if Sig made some type of deal with Kel Tec. The P11 was discontinued about the time that the P365 came out. Seems like a weird time for Kel Tec to drop a gun when that type of pistol becomes more popular than ever.

Unfortunately, the Kel Tec P11 never had a trigger anywhere close to the Sig. Kel Tec also had .40 S&W and .357 Sig conversions available, not to mention 12 round mags for 9mm. IMHO, Kel Tec really dropped the ball as the P11 was a fairly solid platform with a really ****ty trigger!

 

[Whip_McCord]

Unfortunately, the Kel Tec P11 never had a trigger anywhere close to the Sig. Kel Tec also had .40 S&W and .357 Sig conversions available, not to mention 12 round mags for 9mm. IMHO, Kel Tec really dropped the ball as the P11 was a fairly solid platform with a really ****ty trigger!

They were way ahead of the curve with the P11. The trigger is not great, being a DAO hammer fired pistol. If you shoot DA revolvers, it is not unfamiliar. I have both the P11 and the P365. I did a fluff-n-buff on the P11 and the trigger is way better than stock, but the trigger on my P365 is great. Almost too light for a striker-fired carry gun.

So, it took Sig 22 years to do the same thing Kel Tec did, but with a better trigger. Doesn't seem that innovative to me. Don't get me wrong, I like Sigs. I have a P226, and two P226 X5s from the Mastershop. They shoot great. Kel Tec deserves credit for this size 9mm pistol, though. They did it two decades before Sig "started the trend."

 

[singlestacksig]

Anyone know which patent Sig has that covers this?

 

[DadSmith]

They were way ahead of the curve with the P11. The trigger is not great, being a DAO hammer fired pistol. If you shoot DA revolvers, it is not unfamiliar. I have both the P11 and the P365. I did a fluff-n-buff on the P11 and the trigger is way better than stock, but the trigger on my P365 is great. Almost too light for a striker-fired carry gun.

So, it took Sig 22 years to do the same thing Kel Tec did, but with a better trigger. Doesn't seem that innovative to me. Don't get me wrong, I like Sigs. I have a P226, and two P226 X5s from the Mastershop. They shoot great. Kel Tec deserves credit for this size 9mm pistol, though. They did it two decades before Sig "started the trend."

Taurus had a model out back around the same time as the p11. 12rd 9mm 3" barrel. It is now called the G3c. So several companies had these small higher capacity 9mm out 25+ years ago.

 

[88E30M50]

Anyone know which patent Sig has that covers this?

That’s the key question here. We’re all assuming that Sig’s patent was on a small, hi cap mag but as has been pointed out, it can’t be that because a small higher cap mag is not new or innovative. Springfield says that they have patents of their own on their mag design, so my guess is that these patents cover some very obscure technical feature like the radius of a specific corner or the angle of inclination here or there.

The details of the specific patents infringed would be interesting to see if someone could dig that data up.

 

[firecadet613]

Interesting timing...

Magazines - Hellcat Magazines - Springfield Armory

store.springfield-armory.com

 

[Winamac]

I carry the SA Hellcat. Better than the SIG 365 IMHO. Guess I do not see where SA infringed?

 

[Ingomike]

I carry the SA Hellcat. Better than the SIG 365 IMHO. Guess I do not see where SA infringed?

Why would any of us have the foggiest idea without reviewing all of the SIG patents and without being a patent attorney to boot?

 

[NHT3]

Shield Arms should sue Sig.

My first thought was the possibility that Shield Arms or the M&P Shield plus might be involved in this also.. Not sure who figured it out first but it seems we might find out.

 

[Sitcomdad83]

I kick myself for not getting a 365 when I had chance it's next to get on the list to buy.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I carry the SA Hellcat. Better than the SIG 365 IMHO. Guess I do not see where SA infringed?

If you don't mind me asking, what do you prefer about the hellcat over the sig 365?

 

[Winamac]

If you don't mind me asking, what do you prefer about the hellcat over the sig 365?

I do not mind at all. The SA Hellcat just fits my hand better as I have large hands I am a big guy. Plus I just favor SA products in general. Have for years. It is just a very smooth operating sub-compact. I just do not care for the SIG.

 

[Trevelayan]

Everyone knows Sig has the special operator sauce they include in every magazine they make...

Like no one has ever heard of a 1 1/2 stack magazine before...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I do not mind at all. The SA Hellcat just fits my hand better as I have large hands I am a big guy. Plus I just favor SA products in general. Have for years. It is just a very smooth operating sub-compact. I just do not care for the SIG.

Okay. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on a Hellcat yet, the 365 fits my hands for the most part. I've got short wide hands, kinda like a square nose shovel. I'd like to try a 365 XL, but that name makes me chuckle. An extra large micro compact? It's like jumbo shrimp.

 

[WebSnyper]

Okay. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on a Hellcat yet, the 365 fits my hands for the most part. I've got short wide hands, kinda like a square nose shovel. I'd like to try a 365 XL, but that name makes me chuckle. An extra large micro compact? It's like jumbo shrimp.

You can just put an XL grip module on your 365. Same grip dimensions as the 365 with 12 round mag.

 

[rooster]

Interesting timing...

Magazines - Hellcat Magazines - Springfield Armory

store.springfield-armory.com

I guess my g26 with 12 rd magpul is definitely obsolete now....

 

[Timjoebillybob]

You can just put an XL grip module on your 365. Same grip dimensions as the 365 with 12 round mag.

Thanks much. I didn't know if the XL grip module would fit with the slide/barrel being .7 in longer. I only have the 12 rd magazines anyway, so the additional length of the grip on the XL wouldn't be any difference. Main plus I see in the XL is for mag changes, won't have to release my bottom finger to drop the mag.

 

[Route 45]

Thanks much. I didn't know if the XL grip module would fit with the slide/barrel being .7 in longer. I only have the 12 rd magazines anyway, so the additional length of the grip on the XL wouldn't be any difference. Main plus I see in the XL is for mag changes, won't have to release my bottom finger to drop the mag.

Do it.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I guess my g26 with 12 rd magpul is definitely obsolete now....

Not really, it can take the standard 15 rd g19 or 17 rd g17 magazines. Or the larger "extended" ones as well. And at the very least no more obsolete than when Sig introduced the 15 rd mags for the P365.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Do it.

View attachment 141194

Might have to, at the worst it's only $40 if I don't like it.