Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[BigMoose]

T_62s in use in the south....

 

[Thor]

T_62s in use in the south....

Putin says, "Is good enough for USSR is good enough for you!"

The tarps are probably there to keep sat images from showing them deploying T-62s...like that would work.

 

[SEIndSAM]

 

[SEIndSAM]

Timid Biden condemns Ukrainians to an agonising war without end.​

Timid Biden condemns Ukrainians to an agonising war without end

 

[jamil]

I mean. Is everyone seeing reality the same way? I think if you're strongly on a side, it's hard to see all the reality. It doesn't look to me like the war is going as well for the Ukrainians, especially as bad for the Russians, as some of y'all think it is. The only side I'm on is I want the war to stop and Russians to leave Ukraine, cede back all Ukrainian territories, and pay for damages. That's the just outcome. But I also understand the reality that this is probably not possible at this point.

 

[Redhorse]

I mean. Is everyone seeing reality the same way? I think if you're strongly on a side, it's hard to see all the reality. It doesn't look to me like the war is going as well for the Ukrainians, especially as bad for the Russians, as some of y'all think it is. The only side I'm on is I want the war to stop and Russians to leave Ukraine, cede back all Ukrainian territories, and pay for damages. That's the just outcome. But I also understand the reality that this is probably not possible at this point.

I think too many people are getting wrapped up in their own conspiracy theories because it's easier to believe those then the complexities that surround Eastern European geopolitics.

I also think that the social media age has spoiled society with instant gratification. We at first didn't expect this to happen all, just Russia rattling their saber again. Then, we expected this to last a month at most with a likely Russian victory. When that didn't materialize we expected a rapid withdrawal of Russian forces, a coup in Russia, something to bring an end to hostilities. Finally, when all this didn't happen, we expected some massive Ukrainian offensive using a bunch of the weapons that were sent into Ukraine to push thee Russians back to the 2014 fronts with diplomacy to follow. During all this, we expected diplomacy to somehow magically work. When I say "we", I merely mean elements of society as a whole. Clearly we do not all see it this way but most of us can agree on bits and pieces of the current narrative.

However, history has shown what was most likely going to happen; a protracted war for the foreseeable future. Russia has, for centuries, conquered, lost, and reconquered its smaller neighbors. That's created a culture of them believing they have a right to geopolitical influence in that region without the smaller countries having a say. Look at how the USSR reconquered various countries after the Bolshevik revolution, and how they tried to take Finland twice and also Poland prior to being invaded. Their only interest in these areas were their resources and control. These smaller countries have never been a threat to Russia yet decade after decade attack them at of sheer desire of conquest.

There is no grand conspiracy that lead up to this short of the timing, why now? Is Putin sick/dying? Did it take all this time for him to consolidate power enough to attack his neighbors? Is Putin tired of the USA, EU, and China being seen as global "leaders" and wants to be seen as relevant again? Who knows really, that's an entire can of worms on its own.

The reality is Russian forces invaded a sovereign nation unprovoked, with said nation fighting for their very right to existence. Ceding any territory at this point will only delay an inevitable future invasion to take more territory; appealing Hitler in the 1930s is a prime example of this. That leaves the Ukrainians fighting to either total victory, which is unlikely, or to the point they exhaust Russia and its resources, which is the more realistic outcome for them. Russia will either turn thee tide and break through Ukrainian defenses to take the lion's share of the country (if not the whole thing), which is unlikely, or they'll fight the Ukrainians to exhaustion and force them to cede the eastern half of Ukraine to them, and sign a guarantee to not join NATO or the EU, which is more likely for them.

Only time will tell but given the instant gratification era caused by social media, Ukraine is only one bad story, one major loss, or (what's most likely), loss of general interest away from defeat. They're too small with too few of resources to produce their own war materials at a sustainable rate, and what they can produce is being vastly reduced by Russian advances and general bombardment. That leaves them relying on other nations resupplying them until the conclusion of the war however that may be.

My opinion on the matter is supply them with our aging surplus that is outdated anyways, transition to more advanced weaponry, and train them to defend their nation, and (hopefully) eventually drive the Russians out completely. Many don't see it this way but not standing up to Russia is no different then what happened to Poland in 1939. If Russia isn't stopped in Ukraine, the Baltic States is next. Though I believe Moldova (i.e. Moldovan "terrorists" are attacking Transnistria, Russia has to protect them ) and Georgia would be more likely given they are not technically aligned with NATO.

 

[jamil]

I don't disagree, but the the point was that everyone that seems to have a pro-Ukraine position believes irrationally that they're kicking Russia's ass. And they're not really. It's certainly not gone Russia's way in terms of the brash assumption that this would be over as fast as the US took Bagdad. It just seems one-sided from their perspective.

I don't have anything invested in this other than I want to see a just outcome, which is, as I said, Russia pulls out completely and pays for damages. I'm not all that willing for my family to sacrifice for this cause. I don't see this as exactly the same dynamics of 1939.

I also don't see Biden as competent to lead us to the right decisions that might help end this.

 

[BigMoose]

Setting aside niggling over who has taken this little village, or that small town in the east and south for now..

This can not be anything more then a disaster for Russia...

The following things are fairly confirmed, even by the Russians... or video.
Two large naval vessels sunk, others damaged,
Many high ranking Russian officers killed.
USSR era T-62s yanked from storage.
A completely abandoned attack on Kyiv...
A largely static bogged down war in Eastern Ukraine...

Even if you slant this in favor for the Russians... its still a royal arsekicking by a nation that should not have been able to do this.

They expected a 5 day invasion and take over...
They got a 100 day war and an embarrassment.

 

[Thor]

And they lost their Black Sea flag ship to a country without a navy they were engaged in a land war with.

It's almost as embarrassing as needing to have your only aircraft carrier (no longer functioning) towed into battle so you could fly in Syria...for their first ever combat deployment from a carrier.

 

[BigRed]

I also don't see Biden as competent to lead us to the right decisions that might help end this.

Understatement of the decade right there.

The only way I would follow that piece of **** into battle would be to make sure he held still.

 

[Redhorse]

I don't disagree, but the the point was that everyone that seems to have a pro-Ukraine position believes irrationally that they're kicking Russia's ass. And they're not really. It's certainly not gone Russia's way in terms of the brash assumption that this would be over as fast as the US took Bagdad. It just seems one-sided from their perspective.

I don't have anything invested in this other than I want to see a just outcome, which is, as I said, Russia pulls out completely and pays for damages. I'm not all that willing for my family to sacrifice for this cause. I don't see this as exactly the same dynamics of 1939.

I also don't see Biden as competent to lead us to the right decisions that might help end this.

I understand, I was just building off your point. Everyone roots for an underdog or for the bullied kid to embarrass the bully but I try recognizing that when checking updates over the war in Ukraine.

 

[Wolfhound]

Understatement of the decade right there.

The only way I would follow that piece of **** into battle would be to make sure he held still.

If we could somehow install Biden as the leader of Russia or China they would be destroyed economically within a year without us firing a shot.

 

[Michigan Slim]

It's a meat grinder. Which side runs out of meat to shove in first. Both sides losing too many lives. What a ****ing waste of another generation.

 

[jwamplerusa]

This was posted on LinkedIn, and linked to by someone I personally know. I find this both sad for the soldiers being equipped in this manner, but also hopeful that this means Russia is largely running out of modern equipment.

 

[jamil]

This was posted on LinkedIn, and linked to by someone I personally know. I find this both sad for the soldiers being equipped in this manner, but also hopeful that this means Russia is largely running out of modern equipment.

View attachment 204413

Is that real or propaganda? It took is several weeks to figure out the "Ghost of Kyiv" was propaganda.

 

[jwamplerusa]

Is that real or propaganda? It took is several weeks to figure out the "Ghost of Kyiv" was propaganda.

I have no way of vetting the information, and I believe I made full disclosure of the source. However since the Russians are also pulling T-62s out I am not going to automatically discount that the picture may be real and the comment true.

 

[Big Naughty]

I'm still finding it very hard to believe that an actual war is taking place.

I don't watch TV, but I do see some of it while doing cardio at the gym. For months I have seen the same maps used to show what territory Russia has supposedly conquered. They haven't moved an inch since day one!!!! How has Russia not been able to flank or ram through the middle and split the defensive lines. All of Russia's military and manufacturing capabilities are right across an invisible line called a border. So logistics shouldn't be a huge issue for them.

Russia must have the worst commanding officers of any military in the world. Even worse than our purple haired fairy generals and admirals.

Whatever happened to the 40 mile convoy that never got anywhere in over a week?

It's such an awful warzone that Pelosi and Bono from U2 are able to walk around Kiev like it's downtown small city Indiana. GTFO!

Here's the trailer for Wag The Dog. This is what I think is taking place. Remember that Putin is also a member of the World Economic Forum. It's one big club and you ain't in it!

 

[Route 45]

I'm still finding it very hard to believe that an actual war is taking place.

 

[Ark]

Timid Biden condemns Ukrainians to an agonising war without end.​

Timid Biden condemns Ukrainians to an agonising war without end

Straight warmongering from The Guardian. Yeah let's just "smash" the naval units of a nuclear power, that's a great idea. No way that could go wrong.

 

[BigRed]

I'm still finding it very hard to believe that an actual war is taking place.

I don't watch TV, but I do see some of it while doing cardio at the gym. For months I have seen the same maps used to show what territory Russia has supposedly conquered. They haven't moved an inch since day one!!!! How has Russia not been able to flank or ram through the middle and split the defensive lines. All of Russia's military and manufacturing capabilities are right across an invisible line called a border. So logistics shouldn't be a huge issue for them.

Russia must have the worst commanding officers of any military in the world. Even worse than our purple haired fairy generals and admirals.

Whatever happened to the 40 mile convoy that never got anywhere in over a week?

It's such an awful warzone that Pelosi and Bono from U2 are able to walk around Kiev like it's downtown small city Indiana. GTFO!

Here's the trailer for Wag The Dog. This is what I think is taking place. Remember that Putin is also a member of the World Economic Forum. It's one big club and you ain't in it!

No doubt there is much death and destruction....and all nonsense.