Property tax needs to be repealed / abolished NOW! (Morgan Co info here)

[firecadet613]

Sounds like a good argument for setting the tax bill based on purchase price and leaving it there until the property is sold. Now where have I heard that suggested before?

Which lawmaker is going to propose this?

 

[Ingomike]

More on your part. You are just so much smarter than everyone else. We just aren't capable of seeing the reality of the World the way you do.

One of us refuses to answer, and it isn't me. People consume services, not property. Go look at your County budget and learn where the money is actually being spent.

Really. Good to know. So if no one lives at a property it doesn’t need anything it just sits there pristine as you left it. Doesn't need any if the property services like drainage, fire protection if a cigarette gets tossed on it catches fire, no police for trespassers, no one to manage deeds, no roads to the property, the list goes on.

As for the county budget, those before us set up the system, however if enough people want to eliminate or move things to other funding sources, it can be done…

 

[Ingomike]

There is some correlation between property size and consumption of government services. Not a lot though. And certainly barely even relevant when basing the assessed value on market value. If you cannot understand that, I cannot help you.

You can certainly put in the work and money to change it.

 

[Ingomike]

How much does the government spend servicing 10 acres of property? You can't have it both ways. You can't say valuation based on market value AND that this is just paying for the government the home-owner consumes. On 10 acres? Are you kidding?

The valuation is for determining the portion of the budget each property pays and that pays for what the citizens representatives determined were of benefit to property. Get those representatives to change it to a model you prefer.

 

[Ingomike]

So you've just tacitly admitted that taxing based on real estate market value is taxing unrealized gain.

You are taxed on the budgets your representatives pass divided by the total value of all property, subject to the limits in our state constitution. The gain of value is not taxed separately as this is not a tax on any increase in value. It also works the other way when property values decline.

 

[jamil]

Really. Good to know. So if no one lives at a property it doesn’t need anything it just sits there pristine as you left it. Doesn't need any if the property services like drainage, fire protection if a cigarette gets tossed on it catches fire, no police for trespassers, no one to manage deeds, no roads to the property, the list goes on.

C'mon man. You know a property that's just sitting doesn't consume many services at all. Certainly not anything close to justifying the taxes owed on it. Not zero. But not much.

As for the county budget, those before us set up the system, however if enough people want to eliminate or move things to other funding sources, it can be done…

This is a bit of a cop out. Vigorously defend the current way and then just say, well, if you want it changed then it can be done. You should know better. Once a tax always a tax. Now, if you said, it's exceedingly difficult and rare to be changed, it's possible.

 

[Ingomike]

What's the antecedent here. What is what based on? I guess I'll have to hit all the points WRT what is what based on.

Value based taxes have little to do with services consumed. That statement is based on the fact that you can live in a $500M mansion and use 100% private resources for everything you need. **** the police. You can hire your own security. **** the fire department, you can have on-site resources. **** the schools, you can hire a nanny illegally residing in the US. I can go on. There's still other common government things that need paid for. But that has zero to do with the value of your home. What you need the rich people for, is to pay into the system because the poor people, the ones who use the most government, can't afford the government they use.

One could say that more valuable properties tend to use more government services, but that correlation is quite low. This is based on the idea that the value of your property is not proportional to the services you consume, and therefore the value of your property does not have a strong correlation to the government you consume.

You should work to get this changed as you wish, I am just explaining a system many here don’t like but I doubt you could get enough citizens and representatives to agree with you but I’m all for it. Getter done and I will vote for it. Be careful what you wish for, might not work out as you so confidently believe…

 

[Ingomike]

If one cannot understand the that there is no correlation between home value and government consumed, why would anyone take such a person seriously? Many posts in this thread make such claims either tacitly or explicitly. The vast majority of such posts are merely justifying this way of taxing without the necessary understanding of the topic.

I’m explaining the system as it is. Most here seem to have no idea why or how we got here and the rational of our ancestors that put this in place. Then we have utopian ideas for replacement that have little to no basis in reality.

 

[Onebad06vtx]

Two weeks ago our property taxes on my business in Monroe county went from $800,000 to $1,600,000.
Then last week they checked our prices for storage units and raised it again to $2,500,000.00.
So now I have no choice but to pass the cost onto my customers.
FJB !!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do we have to pay for these collage loans and aid to other countries.
This country is in deep trouble!

 

[Ingomike]

Do we have to do our economy 101 lesson again? Generally we like to say costs are passed onto the consumer. That's mostly true. But, let's say you're a slumlord and you charge 1200/month for rent. Your tenant faithfully pays that every month on time. Let's say your property tax breaks down to $400/month on that rental property.

So, now the housing market turns to ****. Values drop, so your property tax drops. Let's say you're now taxed $200/month less than before. Are you going to drop your rent to 1000/month? Eventually it might slide to that depending on what the rental market does. If home values decline, renters will become new buyers. So the rental market drops. And you'll have to drop your price to remain competitive. But you're not going to drop your price just because your expenses became less.

This nonsense of "you pass 100% of your expenses onto the customer" is not completely true. Your price depends on a lot more than just costs. Of course you don't price yourself into losing money. It does mean you can't pass every dollar of expense onto your customer. The market will keister-**** you if you try.

TL;DR you are a liar if you say you'll drop your rent 200/month when expenses decrease 200/month. And if you do, you're stupid. Also, you can't always raise the rent 200 when expenses go up 200. You might raise a little. But it depends on the market how much you can recoup.

Who needs to brush up on market economics? Rent is a market, if property taxes rise to a level that the rent does not cover costs the owner will have to adjust by selling the property or other moves. They certainly do not take losses in perpetuity. Generally when the taxes fall due to declining values other parts of the economy are taking losses as well. It is not a stand alone item.

 

[Ingomike]

The price charged is what people are willing to pay, not just what your expenses are. Raise the price of those movie tickets during a pandemic and see how well you can afford your tax increase?

And the theater owner will have to adjust to the markets, both for tickets and taxes and may well close as hundreds of theaters have or find other ways to generate income.

 

[jamil]

I’m explaining the system as it is. Most here seem to have no idea why or how we got here and the rational of our ancestors that put this in place.

Like I said, if you were merely explaining the system as it is, it would sound a lot less like advocacy.

Then we have utopian ideas for replacement that have little to no basis in reality.

Property tax is theft. There are better solutions. Not utopian, but also everyone knows it won't happen, because the system is well liked by HOA advocates and chamber-o-commerce republicans. Now that property taxes are based on market value, ain't no self respecting CoC Hoosier assemblyman gonna vote for killing local government's cash cow.

 

[jamil]

Who needs to brush up on market economics? Rent is a market, if property taxes rise to a level that the rent does not cover costs the owner will have to adjust by selling the property or other moves. They certainly do not take losses in perpetuity. Generally when the taxes fall due to declining values other parts of the economy are taking losses as well. It is not a stand alone item.

Okay. First, you need some practice in reading comprehension. It's okay. We all do sometimes. I made it clear that we're talking about how much profit, not that one isn't making profit. Not transferring every dollar of cost to the customer is not the same thing as taking a loss. I've made that absolutely clear in every post I've made on this subject, and here you are trying to say otherwise.

When taxes, or really any expense decreases, for whatever reason, the landlord is not going to lower the rent, unless the market drives him to lower the rent. When taxes increase, or really any other expense increases, a landlord will raise the price to compensate as much as the market will allow. Always, landlords will charge as much as markets allow.

If you have a property you're renting out for $1200/month, and say your expenses all in averages out to $800/month, and your taxes go up an average of $100/month, but it's a renters market. You're not going find renters who will pay it until the market turns. You're not losing money. You're still turning $300/month profit. And when the market turns you'll probably raise the rent to meet whatever the market will give you. Cost is not the only factor that influences price. It's like that for pretty much any market.

 

[jamil]

And the theater owner will have to adjust to the markets, both for tickets and taxes and may well close as hundreds of theaters have or find other ways to generate income.

Theaters were operating at a loss once they opened back up. It took a long time to regain moviegoers. People just got used to streaming **** in the comfort of their own homes. I'm still not sure it got back to where it was. The theaters that used to have packed parking lots aren't full anymore. So theater owners must cut cost and find other sources of revenue to stay in business.

But the pandemic is an extreme case. Theaters were booming before. Now? Lol.

 

[Ingomike]

Take your average section 8 apartment complex. I'd wager the number of police interactions involving those properties is many orders of magnitude higher than the interactions involving similar sized homesteads.

They should be charged more because their consumption density acre for acre is more. Not the case with rental houses though. But, I'd still wager that rental houses have more interactions with government entities per acre than homesteads do.

Rental houses can be section 8 but why are you focused on a small portion of the rental market? Also in many jurisdictions owners can be billed additionally if their properties become a big nuisance just as you wish…

 

[Ingomike]

It does to the extent that assessment is based on market value. A home with hardwood floors, and top quality materials, is worth more to people than a mud hut.

Again

Look at chapter 3, task 2, step 2, does is not say explicitly “ note the quality of construction and other features that affect the determination of grade, such as the quality of each aspect of the interior“?

The assessors have largely given up looking in homes today, they just wait until it is sold and get the data from the listings and through the use of trending use nearby sales to keep your assessment close to current.

https://www.in.gov/dlgf/files/2021-assessment-guidelines/Chapter-3.pdf

 

[Ingomike]

Avon fire department sent us a bill for I believe $1600 for an ambulance ride from Reagan/Rockville Rd. to Reagan/10th street after she suffered a seizure. It's been 7 years, so don't remember if we got reimbursed for any part of it from insurance, but had to go to the department office and write a check for the whole amount.

When did ambulance services become a government benefit? I paid for mine back in the 80’s…

 

[Ingomike]

C'mon man. You know a property that's just sitting doesn't consume many services at all. Certainly not anything close to justifying the taxes owed on it. Not zero. But not much.


This is a bit of a cop out. Vigorously explain the current way and then just say, well, if you want it changed then it can be done. You should know better. Once a tax always a tax. Now, if you said, it's exceedingly difficult and rare to be changed, it's possible.

FIFY

 

[Ingomike]

Two weeks ago our property taxes on my business in Monroe county went from $800,000 to $1,600,000.
Then last week they checked our prices for storage units and raised it again to $2,500,000.00.
So now I have no choice but to pass the cost onto my customers.

I read on INGO that you cannot pass the cost onto customers. Glad you can…

FJB !!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do we have to pay for these collage loans and aid to other countries.
This country is in deep trouble!

I get your point and all that is driving up prices, including property, those are the type of things I said were driving up values that cause the property taxes to rise sharply.

 

[jamil]

Rental houses can be section 8 but why are you focused on a small portion of the rental market? Also in many jurisdictions owners can be billed additionally if their properties become a big nuisance just as you wish…

What? You don't want that?

FIFY

Why did you "fix" it to misrepresent reality?