Playing Hero: Where do you draw the line.

[younggun21]

This story was brought up in another thread and I think it would make for interesting discussion.

Anecdotal, but I read a story from somewhere (I think an Ayoob file), that told of a guy carrying concealed in line at the local stop 'n rob. The guy in front of him drew a weapon (I forget what) and robbed the clerk. He thought about drawing his concealed firearm to stop the situation, but decided to wait to do so unless it got really bad. He wasn't given a reason to draw on the guy as the guy just took the money and ran. Good thing he did because he didn't notice the guy behind him was an accomplice of the robber and was visibly armed on his way out. If he had drawn, he would have been shot by the guy he didn't see. Who is to say, that they wouldn't have just taken him out first or grabbed his gun (since the guy behind him had the element of suprise on his side) if he was open carrying? Because they thought he was just an unarmed Joe Schmoe they left him alone.

I have always been taught that unless I or those in my company (i.e. family and friends) are not in immediate danger then my gun is to stay put and I should do my best to be a good witness. Now I have to say that personally I would probably find it hard to see a gun in someone else's face and not react, I am constantly going back and forth on this... where do the rest of you stand?

-K

 

[indyninja]

this should be a good one. I need to think about it.

 

[Lars]

Since every situation is different, I couldn't hope to answer this question. It sounds like a cop out, but really it's not. Take your above scenario for example.

If I were the guy in line, I'd have done exactly what he did.... Nothing.

If I were in the back of the store, with some distance between me, and the bad guy, I may or may not have shot him from behind depending on how sure I was he intended to shoot rather than scare the clerk. I know for certain I'd not have invited him to my gun fight by yelling "Drop the gun" or any other such non-sense. (sorry Shay if that seems familiar... I may have seen a TR video or two at a friends house.)

Needless to say the same scenario plays out many different ways based on where I am in relationship to what's going down.

I couldn't hope to know for certain how I would react under the real stresses of the situation. Hopefully I can take a force on force class in the next 12 months and get a more realistic idea of what stresses are involved in a confrontation.

 

[RogerB]

If I were in the back of the store, with some distance between me, and the bad guy, I may or may not have shot him from behind depending on how sure I was he intended to shoot rather than scare the clerk. I know for certain I'd not have invited him to my gun fight by yelling "Drop the gun" or any other such non-sense.

I agree, and I think if I were in the back at some distance I'd be pulling out my cell phone first. Then if it escalated or any actions turned towards me, then yes I would probably draw and start using whatever cover was available.

One would have to also keep in mind there might be innocent people in your line/direction of fire. Hopefully we never find ourselves in this scenario, but it does seem to be more and more a possibility.

 

[strongcrow]

:rolleyesedit:I think I remember reading (probably Mas Ayoob) that unless it is directly directed AT me, it's better to be a good witness, rather than something else. So I would keep it where it was unless directed at me, then we could dance.

 

[indyninja]

but what are the chances of you winning that gun fight if the gun is already pointed at you and you have not drawn your gun.

So I would keep it where it was unless directed at me, then we could dance.

 

[Scutter01]

but what are the chances of you winning that gun fight if the gun is already pointed at you and you have not drawn your gun.

Seems to me that you could draw without becoming an active participant in the same way that you can draw your cellphone without getting involved.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Man... #1, I hope this NEVER happens to me. Ever.

#2, if it does...i have no idea what I'd do. To me, it's all situational and relative.

In sticking with the situation in the OP, I'd probably not have been able to safely do anything. Best thing for ME to do at that point is to be sure that I (nor family?) become DRT. A gun in hand is always faster than a gun in holster.

-J-

 

[hunter480]

:rolleyesedit:I think I remember reading (probably Mas Ayoob) that unless it is directly directed AT me, it's better to be a good witness, rather than something else. So I would keep it where it was unless directed at me, then we could dance.

I have to disagree with that thinking-for ME at least, I see someone else in trouble, meaning immediate threat to their life, I`m acting.

 

[bwframe]

Good thread, Younggun. I had that one on my mind after seeing it also.

The guy done the right thing.
IF the gun goes off or any other kind of violence erupts, everything changes. As in the scenario, you could being doing more damage to yourself and others by intervening.

 

[shooter521]

Hopefully I can take a force on force class in the next 12 months and get a more realistic idea of what stresses are involved in a confrontation.

That's where I had the single biggest "tactical eye-opener" in any training course I've ever taken. Intervening in someone else's fight and getting center-punched by the person I presumed to be the "victim" reinforced the notion of "not being a hero" more than any lecture ever could.

I have always been taught that unless I or those in my company (i.e. family and friends) are not in immediate danger then my gun is to stay put and I should do my best to be a good witness.

Plus f*cking one. "I [or my loved one] was in fear of death or grievous bodily harm." If my gut isn't screaming that at me, I'm not getting involved. I've actually been called a coward on another list for espousing that viewpoint. Of course, the guy who said that had never done any kind of scenario-based training, let alone been in a real confrontation. It's easy to be Superman from the comfort of your easy chair at home...

 

[JByer323]

I know for a fact that I would hang tight until the threat was directed at me, my family, loved ones, or friends.

But I also know I couldn't not do anything if I was walking down the street, and came across a woman being raped, an elderly gentleman being robbed and beaten, etc.

Kitty Genovese, anyone?

I really don't know.

 

[shooter521]

I know for a fact

But I also know

I really don't know.

Conflicted much?

 

[Sailor]

I will defend anyone, anytime with everything I have, period.

 

[MinuteManMike]

Kitty Genovese, anyone?

Grossly distorted, to the point of it becoming an urban legend. Doesn't even count.

Look around on the interwebs for the facts of the case.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I have to disagree with that thinking-for ME at least, I see someone else in trouble, meaning immediate threat to their life, I`m acting.

Every action has a reaction, remember if the BG is standing there shaking it in their face, just the mere distraction or bringing his attention to you being armed could get a flinch on the trigger, causing horrible results.

I think it would be best to wait silently observe then react if things start to go wrong. Remember you'll never draw the gun out of the holster faster than he can pull the trigger.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I would have to act.

The mere fact that that piece of SH!T is still out there that shot that pregnant woman would force me to act. Who knows what they will do? If they shoot the guy in the face, I will not have that on my conscience.

 

[Plague421]

But I also know I couldn't not do anything if I was walking down the street, and came across a woman being raped, an elderly gentleman being robbed and beaten, etc.

I read somewhere (I would have to look it up) that if say a woman was being mugged, and you shot the assailant, killing him, that in court if the woman had testified that she did not feel her life was in danger, you would be facing criminal charges. It said you have to put yourself in the person's shoes who you are defending.

I personally would think it to be pretty messed up if you stopped a woman from being raped and she testified against you but in this world it is a very real possibility. Not to mention the oppourtunity the woman now has to sue you for traumatization.

But back on subject, I feel that I would have to react as well. In that particular scenario it may have been the end of me, but his partner in crime would have remembered that it may not be wise to hold up a gas station again.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I'll have to ask her before I shoot the person then.

"HELP ME! HELP ME!!"

"Ma'am, do you feel your life is in danger?"

"WHAT?! HELP ME!"

"Ma'am, I can't unless you feel your life is in danger."

"WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?! JUST SHOOT HIM."

"Do you think he is going to kill you?"

"YES!!!!"

Boom boom, boom.

 

[Rookie]

I read somewhere (I would have to look it up) that if say a woman was being mugged, and you shot the assailant, killing him, that in court if the woman had testified that she did not feel her life was in danger, you would be facing criminal charges. It said you have to put yourself in the person's shoes who you are defending.

I personally would think it to be pretty messed up if you stopped a woman from being raped and she testified against you but in this world it is a very real possibility. Not to mention the oppourtunity the woman now has to sue you for traumatization.

But back on subject, I feel that I would have to react as well. In that particular scenario it may have been the end of me, but his partner in crime would have remembered that it may not be wise to hold up a gas station again.

§ 35-41-3-2 Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.


Read the underlined parts. Rape would fall under the definition of serious bodily injury and forcible felony.